From deirdre.kent at gmail.com  Thu Nov  1 02:18:23 2007
From: deirdre.kent at gmail.com (Deirdre Kent)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 19:18:23 +1300
Subject: [LE] Woergl & inflation
In-Reply-To: <000001c81c37$11e97270$0301010a@RAFS>
References: <4729395E.6010301@greens.org.nz>
	<000001c81c37$11e97270$0301010a@RAFS>
Message-ID: <f5029ab20710312318h50f8b1a3m2f9d1e0e5afda9bd@mail.gmail.com>

Interesting figures James. Shows that interest free money must go hand in
hand with land taxes. Georgism and monetary reform cannot be separated.

Deirdre

On 01/11/2007, Raf Manji <rafmanji at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> Dear James,
>
> It's a shame that Jeanette is still stuck in an anti-development mode. The
> burden and impact of interest far outweighs any impact from having decent
> infrastructure such as roads and water pipes.
>
> Issuing interest free money for the purposes of public spending is the
> greatest single policy change that could be made by any government.
> Controlling the supply of that money would be fairly simple. It could be a
> %
> base or fixed amount.
>
> Either way it would be more successful than the current system which has
> seen the money supply grow 326% between Dec 1988 and 2006. In that same
> period the CPI increased only 54% and yet house prices grew 393%. Our
> current system is complete nonsense and only system wide blindness to this
> keeps it going.
>
> I would argue strongly that an interest free economy or post usurious
> state
> would be very well balanced and lead to a far more rounded society and a
> much better environment as less production and consumption takes place.
>
> Added to this a Trucost pricing framework, where all external costs are
> priced in at the point of extraction, will alter prices to reflect
> environmental costs and so change consumer behaviour by tilting demand to
> less costly goods and services.
>
> My personal view is that the Green party is making a major mistake by not
> supporting interest free money.
>
> Regards
>
> Raf
>
> www.sustento.org.nz/blog
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: le-members-bounces at wji.com [mailto:le-members-bounces at wji.com] On
> Behalf Of James Redwood
> Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 3:27 PM
> Cc: le-members at list.wji.com
> Subject: Re: [LE] Woergl & inflation
>
> Thanks for your eloquent thoughts Ella. You communicate very succinctly,
> which is a great strength.
> I have had more thoughts about controlling the issue of CCs, and
> national currencies also. It is an area where I am weak on knowing the
> details, and want to find out more about how various successful ccs
> control their money supply, and specifically what criteria they use.
>
> I was having an extended conversation with Jeanette Fitzsimons on the
> topic of ccs on the weekend, she is not in favour of currency reform at
> this stage, primarily because of her experiences with Social Credit back
> in the Alliance days. Whenever a capital works issue came up, SC would
> say that it could be funded by the government issuing the currency
> required, they did not consider the environmental impact of the
> development, just the finance cost.  The example Jeanette gave was the
> initial plan to pipe water to Auckland from the Waikato (this was the
> first time it was proposed - which was turned down). The Greens were
> against the proposal as the growth in water needs of Auckland could have
> been met with efficiency measures. SC's answer was simply for the
> government to issue all the currency needed to fund the pipeline. This
> was not an isolated example. So the impression Jeanette got from SC was
> that if national currency was re-nationalised, then there would be no
> check on capital spending, and we would have motorways covering the
> countryside.
>
> I also talked with her about American colonial scrip, she asked if the
> colonial economy grew under its use, I replied I did not know but
> assumed it did.
>
> So the general criticism was that interest free money does not
> necessarily result in a balanced economy, and if Social Credit got its
> way back in the 70s and 80s then concern for the environment would not
> have been a control factor in issuing currency. The obvious rejoinder is
> that the type of economy engendered by a particular currency is
> dependant on the control of its issue. Interest does result in some
> measure of control, all be it for the profit of the banks. To persuade
> people like Jeanette to one day support currency re-nationalisation and
> interest-free issue, the control mechanism for issue of currency is
> a/the key factor.
>
> So in thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that there has to be
> an environmental control on the issue of currencies. As I have said I do
> not know if the successful ccs in use have a control based on the
> environmental implications of economic activity. But if groups like ours
> achieve all our goals, environmental limitations have to be the control
> factors for currency issue.
>
> It is for this reason that I favour ccs that use a key survival resource
> as their basis: time, water, land, energy, and my onw
> still-in-development one - seaweed.
>
> FEASTA has a great idea for a global currency based on CO2 emissions,
> the Ebcu (emmissions-based global currency). Its purpose is to reduce
> carbon emmissions, but would have other social benefits as well. It
> would be gifted into existence, initially based on population. The issue
> of the currency would gradually be reduced, based on whatever was the
> most crucial indicator of global sustainability, in this case climate
> control.
>
> FEASTA also advocates as part of this proposal that nations should have
> two currencies, one for savings and capital transfers, the other for
> normal commerce, both to be issued interest-free by the government, both
> with individual floating exchange rates with the Ebcu. They also
> advocate local and other forms of cc.
>
> An interesting proposal.
>
> Regards
> James
>
>
> Ella Linwood wrote:
> > Dear all
> >
> > I found your email Deirdre particularly interesting. To hear that
> > some currency was withdrawn at the beginning as too much was
> > introduced at once. Do you know how it was withdrawn? Were some
> > people refunded schillings in exchange for the notes they held to
> > take them out of circulation? (schillings wouldn't circulate so
> quickly).
> >
> > For anyone who is interested, I think that the Woergl researcher is
> > Eisenkolb, but can find by googling Eisehan or Woergl
> >
> > I found this from James Redwood really important......
> >
> >  >>"a cc is not simply printed indiscriminately, but released under
> > control to match the level of economic activity. If a cc were issued
> > in too much abundance, leading to its devaluation, then citizens
> > would discard it in favour of national currency, as it would be more
> > stable. This is a natural incentive for managers of ccs to be careful
> > about how much currency they issue. You could suggest to your critic
> > that she investigate the excellent example of American colonial scrip
> > (prior to the Bank of England outlawing it). It is a good example of
> > a local complementary currency issued by the citizenry, to itself,
> > under careful control to reflect the volume of trade possible in the
> > economy. As I understand it, colonial scrip did not experience
> > inflation until the colonials were forced to print excessive amounts
> > of it to fund the war of independance".
> >
> > ...................
> >
> > It seems that feedback is a very important aspect of a living system.
> > Feedback that enables balance/homeostasis. I've heard that the Ithaca
> > Hours currency - (being a fiat system) is monitored by a chap (maybe
> > the founder whose name I can't recall) who gets on his bicycle and
> > goes around and gets person to person feedback re the amount of Hours
> > in circulation relative to what can be purchased!
> >
> > I wonder how the Regio's operate? - time to learn about that I think...
> >
> >
> > Thanks again to all who replied,
> >
> > Ella
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > LE-Members mailing list
> > LE-Members at wji.com
> > http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members
> >
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> LE-Members mailing list
> LE-Members at wji.com
> http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.16/1102 - Release Date:
> 31/10/2007
> 4:38 PM
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LE-Members mailing list
> LE-Members at wji.com
> http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members
>



-- 
Deirdre Kent
http://ranuiorchard.blogspot.com
http://localcurrencies.blogspot.com
My Skype name is waikanae

202 Otaki Gorge Road
RD1 Otaki
New Zealand 5581
Ph +64 6 3647779
+64 21 728852
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From kevin_enviro at hotmail.com  Thu Nov  1 17:13:20 2007
From: kevin_enviro at hotmail.com (Kevin Moore)
Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 21:13:20 +0000
Subject: [LE] Woergl & inflation
In-Reply-To: <000001c81c37$11e97270$0301010a@RAFS>
References: <4729395E.6010301@greens.org.nz>
	<000001c81c37$11e97270$0301010a@RAFS>
Message-ID: <BAY110-W1354D674B39B4254AFF86CE68C0@phx.gbl>


'The burden and impact of interest far outweighs any impact from having decentinfrastructure such as roads and water pipes.' 

What about the climate change catastrophe burden that is being transfered to the next generation by all this infrustructure madness. 
 
And what is the point in building roads for cars that won't have affordable fuel? 
 
And what is the point in building piplelines when we are certain to lose our ability to pump water or sewage by 2018 because of the collapse of the electricty system?
K> From: rafmanji at xtra.co.nz> To: james.redwood at greens.org.nz> Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2007 16:27:02 +1300> CC: le-members at list.wji.com> Subject: Re: [LE] Woergl & inflation> > Dear James,> > It's a shame that Jeanette is still stuck in an anti-development mode. The> burden and impact of interest far outweighs any impact from having decent> infrastructure such as roads and water pipes. > > Issuing interest free money for the purposes of public spending is the> greatest single policy change that could be made by any government.> Controlling the supply of that money would be fairly simple. It could be a %> base or fixed amount. > > Either way it would be more successful than the current system which has> seen the money supply grow 326% between Dec 1988 and 2006. In that same> period the CPI increased only 54% and yet house prices grew 393%. Our> current system is complete nonsense and only system wide blindness to this> keeps it going. > > I would argue strongly that an interest free economy or post usurious state> would be very well balanced and lead to a far more rounded society and a> much better environment as less production and consumption takes place.> > Added to this a Trucost pricing framework, where all external costs are> priced in at the point of extraction, will alter prices to reflect> environmental costs and so change consumer behaviour by tilting demand to> less costly goods and services.> > My personal view is that the Green party is making a major mistake by not> supporting interest free money. > > Regards> > Raf> > www.sustento.org.nz/blog> > > > -----Original Message-----> From: le-members-bounces at wji.com [mailto:le-members-bounces at wji.com] On> Behalf Of James Redwood> Sent: Thursday, 1 November 2007 3:27 PM> Cc: le-members at list.wji.com> Subject: Re: [LE] Woergl & inflation> > Thanks for your eloquent thoughts Ella. You communicate very succinctly, > which is a great strength.> I have had more thoughts about controlling the issue of CCs, and > national currencies also. It is an area where I am weak on knowing the > details, and want to find out more about how various successful ccs > control their money supply, and specifically what criteria they use.> > I was having an extended conversation with Jeanette Fitzsimons on the > topic of ccs on the weekend, she is not in favour of currency reform at > this stage, primarily because of her experiences with Social Credit back > in the Alliance days. Whenever a capital works issue came up, SC would > say that it could be funded by the government issuing the currency > required, they did not consider the environmental impact of the > development, just the finance cost. The example Jeanette gave was the > initial plan to pipe water to Auckland from the Waikato (this was the > first time it was proposed - which was turned down). The Greens were > against the proposal as the growth in water needs of Auckland could have > been met with efficiency measures. SC's answer was simply for the > government to issue all the currency needed to fund the pipeline. This > was not an isolated example. So the impression Jeanette got from SC was > that if national currency was re-nationalised, then there would be no > check on capital spending, and we would have motorways covering the > countryside.> > I also talked with her about American colonial scrip, she asked if the > colonial economy grew under its use, I replied I did not know but > assumed it did.> > So the general criticism was that interest free money does not > necessarily result in a balanced economy, and if Social Credit got its > way back in the 70s and 80s then concern for the environment would not > have been a control factor in issuing currency. The obvious rejoinder is > that the type of economy engendered by a particular currency is > dependant on the control of its issue. Interest does result in some > measure of control, all be it for the profit of the banks. To persuade > people like Jeanette to one day support currency re-nationalisation and > interest-free issue, the control mechanism for issue of currency is > a/the key factor.> > So in thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that there has to be > an environmental control on the issue of currencies. As I have said I do > not know if the successful ccs in use have a control based on the > environmental implications of economic activity. But if groups like ours > achieve all our goals, environmental limitations have to be the control > factors for currency issue.> > It is for this reason that I favour ccs that use a key survival resource > as their basis: time, water, land, energy, and my onw > still-in-development one - seaweed.> > FEASTA has a great idea for a global currency based on CO2 emissions, > the Ebcu (emmissions-based global currency). Its purpose is to reduce > carbon emmissions, but would have other social benefits as well. It > would be gifted into existence, initially based on population. The issue > of the currency would gradually be reduced, based on whatever was the > most crucial indicator of global sustainability, in this case climate > control.> > FEASTA also advocates as part of this proposal that nations should have > two currencies, one for savings and capital transfers, the other for > normal commerce, both to be issued interest-free by the government, both > with individual floating exchange rates with the Ebcu. They also > advocate local and other forms of cc.> > An interesting proposal.> > Regards> James> > > Ella Linwood wrote:> > Dear all> >> > I found your email Deirdre particularly interesting. To hear that > > some currency was withdrawn at the beginning as too much was > > introduced at once. Do you know how it was withdrawn? Were some > > people refunded schillings in exchange for the notes they held to > > take them out of circulation? (schillings wouldn't circulate so quickly).> >> > For anyone who is interested, I think that the Woergl researcher is > > Eisenkolb, but can find by googling Eisehan or Woergl> >> > I found this from James Redwood really important......> >> > >>"a cc is not simply printed indiscriminately, but released under > > control to match the level of economic activity. If a cc were issued > > in too much abundance, leading to its devaluation, then citizens > > would discard it in favour of national currency, as it would be more > > stable. This is a natural incentive for managers of ccs to be careful > > about how much currency they issue. You could suggest to your critic > > that she investigate the excellent example of American colonial scrip > > (prior to the Bank of England outlawing it). It is a good example of > > a local complementary currency issued by the citizenry, to itself, > > under careful control to reflect the volume of trade possible in the > > economy. As I understand it, colonial scrip did not experience > > inflation until the colonials were forced to print excessive amounts > > of it to fund the war of independance".> >> > ...................> >> > It seems that feedback is a very important aspect of a living system. > > Feedback that enables balance/homeostasis. I've heard that the Ithaca > > Hours currency - (being a fiat system) is monitored by a chap (maybe > > the founder whose name I can't recall) who gets on his bicycle and > > goes around and gets person to person feedback re the amount of Hours > > in circulation relative to what can be purchased!> >> > I wonder how the Regio's operate? - time to learn about that I think...> >> >> > Thanks again to all who replied,> >> > Ella> >> > _______________________________________________> > LE-Members mailing list> > LE-Members at wji.com> > http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members> >> >> > > _______________________________________________> LE-Members mailing list> LE-Members at wji.com> http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members> > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message.> Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.16/1102 - Release Date: 31/10/2007> 4:38 PM> > > _______________________________________________> LE-Members mailing list> LE-Members at wji.com> http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members
_________________________________________________________________
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From james.redwood at greens.org.nz  Sun Nov  4 20:49:42 2007
From: james.redwood at greens.org.nz (James Redwood)
Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2007 14:49:42 +1300
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
In-Reply-To: <BAY110-W1354D674B39B4254AFF86CE68C0@phx.gbl>
References: <4729395E.6010301@greens.org.nz>
	<000001c81c37$11e97270$0301010a@RAFS>
	<BAY110-W1354D674B39B4254AFF86CE68C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <472E76B6.2060707@greens.org.nz>

Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding an 
international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that some of 
you have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion Protocol". He 
sees the ideal co-ordinated global response to oil depletion as 
including international and national currency reform, using FEASTA's 
interest-free model. I recommend it to those of you who haven't got it, 
Helen can supply it to those who wish to purchase a copy.
Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international group you 
have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is the one under 
recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and interest-free national 
currency, along with a new international trading currency such as 
FEASTA's Ebcu, in dealing /directly/ with ecological collapse, and 
creating economies of balance.
It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader - 
Jeanette Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not 
necessarily create balanced economies (with regard to resource 
use/depletion), is valid. Raf, I share Kevin's concern with your reply, 
I believe we have more than enough large-scale infrastructure in terms 
of roads, electricity generation and water supply. Your comment about 
"decent infrastructure" seems to imply that in your opinion we do not 
have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have read the implication 
incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then even here within LE we 
disagree about environmental limits on economic activity. Thus in turn 
we may well disagree when coming up with environmentally approriate 
controls on currency issue (to replace interest), especially with regard 
to public capital investment.
So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work on 
indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, and 
designing others, that are governed in their issue by the availability 
of key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, organic fertiliser, 
energy, recycled materials etc. In other words, there is no ponit in 
promoting currency reform to governments, if the reform does not include 
clear environmentally-based controls for currency issue to replace 
interest. Otherwise there is still a strong likelihood that a governmnet 
will re-nationalise currency issue, and still embark on unsustainable 
forms of economic growth, funded by interest-free money.
I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am unaware of 
it, perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material into a report.
I look forward to your feedback.
James


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From paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com  Sun Nov  4 21:03:37 2007
From: paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com (Geoff. Waterhouse)
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2007 18:03:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
Message-ID: <467282.97037.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello James,
This is Geoff Waterhouse. I must have missed something. Who is Oscar?
I have been checking some of the "P2P" lending thingies and have made contact with "Zopa," about the possibility of a New Zealand associate/affiliate/branch/whatever. I spoke to someone there and they are moving to set up "franchises" in Japan and the USA. I wrote to the New Zealand and Austraia ones too, but no re[ply.
Regards
Geoff.

----- Original Message ----
From: James Redwood <james.redwood at greens.org.nz>
To: le-members at list.wji.com
Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 2:49:42 PM
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control

Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding an international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that some of you have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion Protocol". He sees the ideal co-ordinated global response to oil depletion as including international and national currency reform, using FEASTA's interest-free model. I recommend it to those of you who haven't got it, Helen can supply it to those who wish to purchase a copy.
Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international group you have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is the one under recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and interest-free national currency, along with a new international trading currency such as FEASTA's Ebcu, in dealing directly with ecological collapse, and creating economies of balance. 
It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader - Jeanette Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not necessarily create balanced economies (with regard to resource use/depletion), is valid. Raf, I share Kevin's concern with your reply, I believe we have more than enough large-scale infrastructure in terms of roads, electricity generation and water supply. Your comment about "decent infrastructure" seems to imply that in your opinion we do not have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have read the implication incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then even here within LE we disagree about environmental limits on economic activity. Thus in turn we may well disagree when coming up with environmentally approriate controls on currency issue (to replace interest), especially with regard to public capital investment.
So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work on indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, and designing others, that are governed in their issue by the availability of key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, organic fertiliser, energy, recycled materials etc. In other words, there is no ponit in promoting currency reform to governments, if the reform does not include clear environmentally-based controls for currency issue to replace interest. Otherwise there is still a strong likelihood that a governmnet will re-nationalise currency issue, and still embark on unsustainable forms of economic growth, funded by interest-free money.
I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am unaware of it, perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material into a report.
I look forward to your feedback.
James

__________________________________________________
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From james.redwood at greens.org.nz  Mon Nov  5 18:33:21 2007
From: james.redwood at greens.org.nz (James Redwood)
Date: Tue, 06 Nov 2007 12:33:21 +1300
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
In-Reply-To: <467282.97037.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <467282.97037.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <472FA841.3020403@greens.org.nz>

Thanks Geoff, and my apologies
May I introduce to the group, Oscar Kjellberg, founder of the 
interest-free co-operatively run JAK bank in Sweden, a keynote speaker 
at the recent EcoShow in Taupo, and recipient of TLC from our police 
force during the "anti-terrorist" raids which included Bryan Innes' 
house, where Oscar was staying. Oscar asked recently to become a member 
of LE, as he is proposing a new international grouping to forward the 
cause of interest-free finance. Oscar, would you be able to give us an 
introductory email?

Regarding P2P finance, I have followed the links you and Raf gave also, 
and the different operations obviously seemed to be in various states of 
readiness, with Kiva being the one that appeared to be functioning the 
best. I am not surprised you have not heard back from the local 
versions; though they are worthy efforts, it only takes one web designer 
to come up with an online presence that in appearance could far exceed 
its influence. I wish those schemes well, but I also wonder how many P2P 
finance schemes are needed. I can see there will possibly be competition 
in this area, which is probably a good thing.

James

Geoff. Waterhouse wrote:
> Hello James,
> This is Geoff Waterhouse. I must have missed something. Who is Oscar?
> I have been checking some of the "P2P" lending thingies and have made 
> contact with "Zopa," about the possibility of a New Zealand 
> associate/affiliate/branch/whatever. I spoke to someone there and they 
> are moving to set up "franchises" in Japan and the USA. I wrote to the 
> New Zealand and Austraia ones too, but no re[ply.
> Regards
> Geoff.
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: James Redwood <james.redwood at greens.org.nz>
> To: le-members at list.wji.com
> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 2:49:42 PM
> Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
>
> Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding an 
> international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that some 
> of you have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion Protocol". 
> He sees the ideal co-ordinated global response to oil depletion as 
> including international and national currency reform, using FEASTA's 
> interest-free model. I recommend it to those of you who haven't got 
> it, Helen can supply it to those who wish to purchase a copy.
> Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international group 
> you have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is the one 
> under recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and interest-free 
> national currency, along with a new international trading currency 
> such as FEASTA's Ebcu, in dealing /directly/ with ecological collapse, 
> and creating economies of balance.
> It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader - 
> Jeanette Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not 
> necessarily create balanced economies (with regard to resource 
> use/depletion), is valid. Raf, I share Kevin's concern with your 
> reply, I believe we have more than enough large-scale infrastructure 
> in terms of roads, electricity generation and water supply. Your 
> comment about "decent infrastructure" seems to imply that in your 
> opinion we do not have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have read 
> the implication incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then even 
> here within LE we disagree about environmental limits on economic 
> activity. Thus in turn we may well disagree when coming up with 
> environmentally approriate controls on currency issue (to replace 
> interest), especially with regard to public capital investment.
> So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work on 
> indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, and 
> designing others, that are governed in their issue by the availability 
> of key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, organic 
> fertiliser, energy, recycled materials etc. In other words, there is 
> no ponit in promoting currency reform to governments, if the reform 
> does not include clear environmentally-based controls for currency 
> issue to replace interest. Otherwise there is still a strong 
> likelihood that a governmnet will re-nationalise currency issue, and 
> still embark on unsustainable forms of economic growth, funded by 
> interest-free money.
> I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am unaware 
> of it, perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material into a report.
> I look forward to your feedback.
> James
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.21/1110 - Release Date: 4/11/2007 9:37 p.m.
>   
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From cmhensch at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 16:07:00 2007
From: cmhensch at gmail.com (Christoph Hensch)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:07:00 +1300
Subject: [LE] Foreclosure wave sweeps America
In-Reply-To: <200711071813050450.0251AEE9@mail.lobo.net>
References: <200711071813050450.0251AEE9@mail.lobo.net>
Message-ID: <d58bd5020711071307u7a55145bpe2d7a96eb8bd95db@mail.gmail.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7070935.stm
Foreclosure wave sweeps America
By Steve Schifferes
BBC economics reporter, Cleveland, Ohio

A wave of foreclosures and evictions is about to sweep the United
States in the wake of the sub-prime mortgage lending crisis.
This could destabilise the US housing market and may also lead to
further turmoil in financial institutions, who collectively own $1
trillion (?480.6bn) worth of sub-prime debt.
Cleveland, Ohio, is an industrial city on the banks of Lake Erie in
the US "rust belt".

It is the sub-prime capital of the United States. One in ten homes in
the city is now vacant, and whole neighbourhoods have been blighted
by foreclosed, vandalized and boarded-up homes.

Families all over the country continue to lose homes in record
numbers, stripping families of their wealth and destroying entire
neighbourhoods

Michael J Calhoun
Center for Responsible Lending


Many of these homes are now owned by the banks and investment pools
owning the mortgages, and the company making the most foreclosures in
Cleveland is Deutsche Bank Trust, which acts on behalf of such
investment pools.

Cleveland is facing a rising crime wave, and the cost of demolishing
the vacant houses alone will cost the city $100m of its tax base.

According to Jim Rokakis, the County Treasurer for Cleveland's
Cuyahoga County, "Wall Street strategies that made the cycle of no-
money-down, no-questions-asked lending possible have sucked the life
out of my city".

Sub-prime crisis growing

Sub-prime lending is spreading across the United States, especially
in the booming housing markets of Southern California, Florida,
Washington, DC, and New York City.

One in five US mortgages now falls in this category. As the credit
crunch continues to bite "families all over the country continue to
lose homes in record numbers, stripping families of their wealth and
destroying entire neighbourhoods," says Michael Calhoun of the Center
for Responsible Lending, which tracks these issues.

Sub-prime mortgages carry a much higher risk of default by the
borrower than other kinds of mortgage lending.

That is because most of them are "balloon" mortgages (technically
known as hybrid-adjustable rate mortgages, or ARMs), which offer the
borrower a fixed-rate loan for two or three years, and then switch to
a much higher adjustable rate after that.

HAVE YOUR SAY
Everyone is going to feel this credit crunch to some extent
Turned Worm
Many of them are set to switch in the next two years, leaving
borrowers unable to afford the higher payments.

There have already been 1.7 million foreclosure proceedings in the US
in the first eight months of 2007, and up to 2 million families are
expected to lose their homes over the next two years, according to
estimates by the US Congress's Joint Economic Committee.

Crisis origins

But why have so many people in the US taken out sub-prime mortgages?

The sub-prime lending market started as a way of lending to people
with poor credit history - as long as they had collateral like a
house that could be used to guarantee the loan.

It was particularly prevalent in inner-city areas, especially among
black and Hispanic borrowers.

Many of these mortgages were sold by unscrupulous and little
regulated mortgage brokers, who received handsome commissions for
selling expensive and unsuitable products.

Some customers were not told that their interest rates would go up
sharply after two years; others were promised they could refinance
their home before higher rates took effect.

Others found that when they had difficulties paying, huge unexplained
fees were added to their bills, putting them further in debt.

Marion's story

One person hard hit is Marion Gardner, who lives in one of the worst
affected sub-prime lending areas of Cleveland, known as Slavic Village.

A single parent, she had worked hard to buy a house where she could
raise her two children and escape from the misery of the inner-city
housing projects.

Two years ago Marion fell ill, and found she could not manage the
stairs in her house.

She decided to refinance her home, using some of the money to buy an
apartment where she could more easily manage.

She gave her old house to her two sons, expecting they would
contribute to paying for the property she had struggled so hard to
obtain. But the sons fell behind in their payments.

Marion went to her lender - Countrywide, the biggest sub-prime lender
in the US - and offered to pay off all the arrears.

She said they accepted her offer, and began sending them $1,000 every
month, using up her retirement savings.

But after six months she discovered that instead of clearing her
arrears, her home was going to be foreclosed by Countrywide.

She still visits the house every day, trying to protect if from drug
dealers and burglars, and leaves her dog in the backyard.

But she can see all along her street dozens of foreclosed properties
that have been vandalised, boarded up, or gutted.

Now she has learned that a date has been set for the sheriff to come
and evict her.

Deceptive practices?

Mark Seifert, the director of the East Side Organising Project (ESOP)
in Cleveland, which has played a leading role in helping people
affected by the sub-prime crisis, says Marion's story is typical.

SUB-PRIME CRISIS SERIES
Special reports on why bad US home loans are affecting us all
Friday: US housing crash
Monday: Financial meltdown

He says lenders engaged in deceptive practices and clients found it
difficult to get any information at all when they got into arrears.

Mr Seifert says that ESOP - using protest tactics - has managed to
get a few mortgage companies to sign a deal agreeing a uniform set of
criteria to decide whether someone's mortgage qualifies for
renegotiation rather than foreclosure.

But he says they have been unable to reach such an agreement with
Countrywide, the nation's largest sub-prime lender - although its
boss has promised to meet them.

Spreading to the suburbs

The crisis has spread beyond the inner city to the suburbs of Cleveland.

Last month over 200 people turned up at a church meeting to seek
ESOP's help in avoiding foreclosure.

Some, such as Ron Todd, who lives in a suburb just south of the city,
are in danger of losing their home after being made redundant by
Northwest Airlines, a big local employer.

Others are worried that their neighbourhoods - and the property
values of their own houses - will be ruined by the foreclosures all
around them.

According to Claudia Coulton, co-director of the Centre for Urban
Poverty at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, over 10,000
families - one in eight of all owner occupiers in Cleveland - will
face eviction this year - and the number is expected to rise.

She says the crisis is threatening to "overwhelm the government
agencies and community organisations that address the problem".

Nationwide problem

Cleveland's situation is not unique.

All around the country, aid agencies report a "tidal wave" of
foreclosure cases, says Sarah Gerecke, director of New York City's
Neighborhood Housing Services.

PREDATORY LENDING PRACTICES
Ninja Loans: no income, no job, no assets
2/28: Mortgages that change from a fixed to a much higher adjustable
rate after first two years
Prepayment penalties: High fees for trying to change terms of mortgage

She now employs six people full-time to provide mortgage debt
counselling, up from one just two years ago, and could use another 12.

Her concern is that many recently regenerated neighbourhoods in New
York will soon be blighted by crisis again.

Some people argue that the sub-prime lending crisis has been caused
by irresponsible borrowers who lied about their income to cash in on
the housing boom. Ms Gerecke disagrees. She says few of her clients
would knowingly put their home at risk.

Many sub-prime borrowers report that mortgage brokers misrepresented
the kind of mortgage they were being offered, their annual income,
and even the value of their home.

Working together?

President George W Bush's administration wants to solve the
foreclosure crisis by getting lenders and borrowers to renegotiate
the terms of loans.

There is a natural level of foreclosures that goes on in an economy
in good times and bad... it's part of the nature of how our economy
works

US Treasury Under Secretary for Domestic Finance
It is pledging more money for advice services, and has been urging
key lenders to take a more sympathetic approach.

Robert Steel, the US Treasury Under Secretary for Domestic Finance,
told the BBC that the government's role was "to ensure that lenders
and servicers are being flexible with regard to working with borrowers".

He added that no policy could eliminate foreclosures altogether
because there was "a natural level of foreclosures that goes on in an
economy in good times and bad... it's part of the nature of how our
economy works."

But according to Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's, only 1% of
sub-prime mortgages have been renegotiated rather than foreclosed so
far.

Ms Gerecke says a piecemeal approach involving millions of individual
renegotiations will not work. Each case takes hours of negotiations,
and the mortgage companies' loan loss departments are overwhelmed by
the crisis.

A way out?

The only way out, says Ms Gerecke, would be national loan terms
agreed for the whole industry.

One such plan has been proposed by Sheila Bair, head of the Federal
Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), one of the key banking regulators.

She told the BBC that sub-prime interest rates should not be reset if
the borrower has kept up all payments and is not in arrears.

But such a deal is proving extremely difficult to reach, given that
thousands of investors around the world own a share of these sub-
prime mortgages.

Meanwhile Marion still sits in her Cleveland home every day, trying
to stop it being vandalised even though she knows it is merely a
matter of time before she will be evicted.

"I am just really working for the banks now, protecting their
property from damage," she says.





-- 
skype me at:  cmhensch
http://cocreate26.blogspot.com
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From oscar at jak.se  Wed Nov  7 18:31:47 2007
From: oscar at jak.se (Oscar Kjellberg)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 00:31:47 +0100
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
In-Reply-To: <472FA841.3020403@greens.org.nz>
References: <467282.97037.qm@web30607.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<472FA841.3020403@greens.org.nz>
Message-ID: <A16452B0-2470-4BBC-B708-23669024EE1A@jak.se>

OK. Here is my introduction. Invited by Jo Pearsall and Bryan Innes to  
speak on the Ecoshow and to study their application of interest free  
and reciprocal financial systems on Maori housing I spent a very  
interesting week in New Zealand. The nation wide raids in social  
activist houses gave a new dimension to what we are working with. We  
try to organize our lives in just and sustainable ways.

For ten years I was the CEO of JAK (it was founded long before I  
joined) and since 2004 I have been working with different ideas of how  
to develop interest free saving and financing. We want to develop an  
interest free economy and this idea attracts an increasing number of  
people. Most people are trying to develop complementary currencies and  
then there are JAK in Denmark and Sweden trying to develop interest  
free banking. JAK was started in 1965 and the first loan was given in  
1970. In 1997 we got our banking permit. Still we are doing the same  
thing  - operating an interest free savings and loan scheme but today  
we are doing it with 35 000 members.

Over the years I have had contacts with an increasing number of people  
trying to develop interest free economics. After my return from New  
Zealand I realised that it is time to make our discussions global. The  
New World Order is over us globally and we need to network globally to  
be able to create something different and better.

  Oscar

6 nov 2007 kl. 00.33 skrev James Redwood:

> Thanks Geoff, and my apologies
> May I introduce to the group, Oscar Kjellberg, founder of the  
> interest-free co-operatively run JAK bank in Sweden, a keynote  
> speaker at the recent EcoShow in Taupo, and recipient of TLC from  
> our police force during the "anti-terrorist" raids which included  
> Bryan Innes' house, where Oscar was staying. Oscar asked recently to  
> become a member of LE, as he is proposing a new international  
> grouping to forward the cause of interest-free finance. Oscar, would  
> you be able to give us an introductory email?
>
> Regarding P2P finance, I have followed the links you and Raf gave  
> also, and the different operations obviously seemed to be in various  
> states of readiness, with Kiva being the one that appeared to be  
> functioning the best. I am not surprised you have not heard back  
> from the local versions; though they are worthy efforts, it only  
> takes one web designer to come up with an online presence that in  
> appearance could far exceed its influence. I wish those schemes  
> well, but I also wonder how many P2P finance schemes are needed. I  
> can see there will possibly be competition in this area, which is  
> probably a good thing.
>
> James
>
> Geoff. Waterhouse wrote:
>>
>> Hello James,
>> This is Geoff Waterhouse. I must have missed something. Who is Oscar?
>> I have been checking some of the "P2P" lending thingies and have  
>> made contact with "Zopa," about the possibility of a New Zealand  
>> associate/affiliate/branch/whatever. I spoke to someone there and  
>> they are moving to set up "franchises" in Japan and the USA. I  
>> wrote to the New Zealand and Austraia ones too, but no re[ply.
>> Regards
>> Geoff.
>> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: James Redwood <james.redwood at greens.org.nz>
>> To: le-members at list.wji.com
>> Sent: Monday, November 5, 2007 2:49:42 PM
>> Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
>>
>> Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding  
>> an international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that  
>> some of you have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion  
>> Protocol". He sees the ideal co-ordinated global response to oil  
>> depletion as including international and national currency reform,  
>> using FEASTA's interest-free model. I recommend it to those of you  
>> who haven't got it, Helen can supply it to those who wish to  
>> purchase a copy.
>> Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international  
>> group you have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is  
>> the one under recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and  
>> interest-free national currency, along with a new international  
>> trading currency such as FEASTA's Ebcu, in dealing directly with  
>> ecological collapse, and creating economies of balance.
>> It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader -  
>> Jeanette Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not  
>> necessarily create balanced economies (with regard to resource use/ 
>> depletion), is valid. Raf, I share Kevin's concern with your reply,  
>> I believe we have more than enough large-scale infrastructure in  
>> terms of roads, electricity generation and water supply. Your  
>> comment about "decent infrastructure" seems to imply that in your  
>> opinion we do not have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have  
>> read the implication incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then  
>> even here within LE we disagree about environmental limits on  
>> economic activity. Thus in turn we may well disagree when coming up  
>> with environmentally approriate controls on currency issue (to  
>> replace interest), especially with regard to public capital  
>> investment.
>> So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work  
>> on indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based  
>> currencies, and designing others, that are governed in their issue  
>> by the availability of key resources: fresh water, labour, arable  
>> land, organic fertiliser, energy, recycled materials etc. In other  
>> words, there is no ponit in promoting currency reform to  
>> governments, if the reform does not include clear environmentally- 
>> based controls for currency issue to replace interest. Otherwise  
>> there is still a strong likelihood that a governmnet will re- 
>> nationalise currency issue, and still embark on unsustainable forms  
>> of economic growth, funded by interest-free money.
>> I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am  
>> unaware of it, perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material  
>> into a report.
>> I look forward to your feedback.
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> __________________________________________________
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>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.21/1110 - Release Date:  
>> 4/11/2007 9:37 p.m.
>>
>
> -- 
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From elinwood at westnet.com.au  Thu Nov  8 05:34:36 2007
From: elinwood at westnet.com.au (Ella Linwood)
Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 20:34:36 +1000
Subject: [LE] Currency issue control
Message-ID: <20071108103313.3470521CC13@hosted04.westnet.com.au>


Dear LE,

>Raf wrote: "My personal view is that the Green party is making a 
>major mistake by not supporting interest free money."

I'm not decided on this as I think there is more to it and I'd like 
to hear further. Deirdre mentioned Georgian land tax,  James has 
bought up making environmental needs a component of currency design......

James Redwood wrote:

So the impression Jeanette got from SC was that if national currency 
was re-nationalised, then there would be no check on capital 
spending, and we would have motorways covering the countryside.  I 
also talked with her about American colonial scrip, she asked if the 
colonial economy grew under its use, I replied I did not know but 
assumed it did.

While I do see Janette's point... neither would there would be 
financial blocks to what we do want - eg, locally-owned innovative 
food, water, housing, energy projects or better education - eg, low 
to no students fees, end to business corruption of university 
research etc etc. Perhaps the issue is not so much interest-free 
currency in itself, but the problems we have with political 
decision-making being not exactly responsive to the will of the people.

> >> To persuade people like Jeanette to one day support currency 
> re-nationalisation and interest-free issue, the control mechanism 
> for issue of currency is a/the key factor.

  I guess this would go some way to compensate for the 
adversarial-based, representative democratic system we have, 
inadequate for making the wise but hard decisions of our times I 
think.Were interest-free currencies to begin on the very local and/or 
council level then people get a chance to practice feedback as to 
currency issue as to its linkage with environmental and social 
requirements.There would be a lot less need for national and 
international currencies in day to day use, as people would mostly be 
using local and regional currencies  Each level of the system manages 
its issue in semi-autonomous and interdependent way - local, 
regional, national, international.

In contrast, in a national set-up advocated by Social credit, the 
whole thing can be privatized again by a process of attrition, or in 
an instant - one christmas eve when all are sleeping!.....

  Local and regional levels are at least immediately do-able (despite 
certain significant obstructions) and have the advantage of being 
more easily transparent, accountable, democratic, and responsive to 
feedback. Plus these levels will be even more important than they are 
now in a post-carbon economy.

> >> So in thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that there 
> has to be an environmental control on the issue of currencies. As I 
> have said I do not know if the successful ccs in use have a control 
> based on the environmental implications of economic activity. But 
> if groups like ours achieve all our goals, environmental 
> limitations have to be the control factors for currency issue. It 
> is for this reason that I favour ccs that use a key survival 
> resource as their basis: time, water, land, energy, and my own 
> still-in-development one - seaweed.

Yes, this feels 'right' somehow.This would be my ideal. Ties in with 
traditional concept of money as being highly appreciated items that 
were rare and considered precious. Perhaps instead of shell 
necklaces, gold, diamonds, or greenstone, we could find ways to treat 
Earth, Air and Water as the precious measures and stores of value in 
which we base our economies....eg fibre, food, trees, and the quality 
of air and water.

James wrote:

So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work 
on identifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, 
and designing others, that are governed in their issue by the 
availability of key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, 
organic fertiliser, energy, recycled materials etc. In other words, 
there is no point in promoting currency reform to governments, if the 
reform does not include clear environmentally-based controls for 
currency issue to replace interest. Otherwise there is still a strong 
likelihood that a government will re-nationalise currency issue, and 
still embark on unsustainable forms of economic growth, funded by 
interest-free money.

I'm for a group that focuses on this. In the meantime, here would be good too.

Re the backing by Time - community skills and services, (ie, 
something already in the ownership of people rather than resources 
held or managed by unresponsive councils and large interests), I'm 
interested in the Kinsale Energy Descent Action Plan - economies 
section, 10 pages. I would like to talk with someone about this in 
person, if anyone has read this plan and would be willing to discuss 
with me as I would like to understand this proposal better.

Raf wrote: "The burden and impact of interest far outweighs any 
impact from having decent infrastructure such as roads and water pipes".

The idea of 'infrastructure' seems to occur to governments in Think 
Big proportions.  For example, in Australia the government's climate 
change initiative is to have a massive (biggest in the world of 
course), solar panel plant, rather than the idea of getting solar hot 
water heating onto all homes tomorrow like some countries are doing. 
In Germany lots of homes are getting their own household wind 
turbine. In Denmark a great proportion of the wind generators are 
cooperatives - probably owned more or less locally I would guess. 
While all this is stating the obvious for many of you, I think we 
need to get away from National top down solutions as primary, whether 
that be political power, money issue and management or energy 
generation. In terms of infrastructure for decentralized means of 
livelihood, then we don't already have what is needed.

> > Added to this a Trucost pricing framework, where all external 
> costs are priced in at the point of extraction, will alter prices 
> to reflect environmental costs and so change consumer behaviour by 
> tilting demand to less costly goods and services.

Yes, for 'Trucost Pricing Framework'  - hope  this term is used more 
frequently amongst us and takes off in the public imagination. I 
think this fits with the basing of currency as James describes above.

Kevin wrote re economic growth and population growth:

>The 'good news' is that 4 or 5 billion are going to starve to death 
>over the next couple of decades as the oil supply collapses and 
>industrial agriculture goes into terminal decline.
>
This context is happening and our discussion took place without this 
reality check - thanks Kevin.

Last but not least, welcome Oscar  - glad to hear that you wish 
ongoing connection with LE NZ and I hope this is fruitful and 
enjoyable for you.


Ella Linwood

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From paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  9 05:49:24 2007
From: paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com (Geoff. Waterhouse)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 02:49:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [LE] Kiva In Samoa
Message-ID: <321594.95038.qm@web30605.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Greetings from New Zealand's Winterless North, The Bay of Islands
 
I have recently found out about Kiva and think that it is a wondeful programme. I see from your entry on Kiva that "SPBD's mission is to improve the quality of life of people living in poverty in the poor island nations of the South Pacific" Samoa is obviously your first venture. Have you any plans for places like Vanuatu and/or New Caledonia? I am particularly interested in New Caledonia since, being English and having a British/EU Passport, I could go there without any visa problems. I also still have a working knowledge of French and a very adventuresome American wife who has a B. Sc. degree in Natural health.
I, as I mentioned above, live in New Zealand and would be interested in working with you to assist Pacific Islanders become independent financially. One thing I wish to make clear is that I would not be interested in making loans in US dollars. I see nothing but a bleak future for the USA and its currency and would only consider making loans in New Zealand Dollars at this stage. NZ Dollars seem logical since we already trade with South Pacific nations and are in close proximity geographically.
 
I am 65 and fully employed running several things here. I make fuel for my diesel vehicles from Waste Vegeatable Oil that I collect from local  takeaways and chips shops. It is NOT "Biodiesel," it is just cleaned oil. I believe that this, dependent on the number of places using Vegetable Oil, could help Pacific Islands reduce their use of diesel. I am looking to franchise this concept and would welcome the opportunity to work with you, using your local knowledge, to find out if it might be feasible.
 
"Trees" are also another area of great interest and one with which I am experimenting here. One of the trees has many health properties, grows prolifiically in climates like those of Pacific Islands. It can be eaten by humans and cattle, the seeds contain food grade oil which could first be used for cooking and then as a diesel type fuel. The shell of the seed is a water purifier  which has been used in Mali by the University of Leicester to provide a water purification plant which eliminates the use of expensive, imported chemicals. There is a lot more to it, but this, at least, gives you an idea.
 
The second tree is not edible but the seeds, which are quite large, contain a high percentage of oil which can be used directly as an alternative to diesel. A professor in India is introducing electricity to remote Indian villages by using the oil from the crushed seeds in a Lister type diesel generator. The local villagers are to paid to collect the seeds, of which there are millions lying around on the ground, and this provides them with a source of income.There are, obviously, no power lines required. The tree is also a Nitrogen fixing tree which, apparently, is an asset. These trees could, in all probability, provide "carbon credits" which could be sold under the Kyoto Protocol. I have been in discussion with the New Zealand Government about this and am encouraged by what I learned. The reason for mentioning the trees was as a result of reading about "plantations" which were mentioned in the descriptions of some of the businesses. Do the people own
 the plantations or just rent them as tenants? My thinking was that I would provide seeds for both types of tree at no cost, so no loan would be needed and no money would have to be sent so no bank would be making commission on foreign exchange transactions.  Just as an aside, to let you know where I stand, I consider banks, in their present form, to be a wart on the skin of humanity. The seeds would be my input and I would expect a share of the income derived from the trees. The first one normally provides a return in its first year and every year thereafter. The second one would be much more long term as it takes 5 years to start producing.
 
I am sorry if I have gone on a bit, but I do think you are doing a wonderful job and I would like to be involved in a "hands on" capacity if that is possible. There may well be others in New Zealand who would be interested in participating. I have no time for outfits who just want you to give money ad think they know best what to do with it. I have approached some, offering to be directly involved and to help, but have been declined each time.
 
I look forward to hearing fro you in ue course
 
Youres faithfully,
Geoff. Waterhouse  
 
The Waste Vegetable Oil and trees are totally new to me as my background is some 40 years in the Mortgage/Finance and Insurance Broking business.

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From cmhensch at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 16:10:33 2007
From: cmhensch at gmail.com (Christoph Hensch)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 10:10:33 +1300
Subject: [LE] [Debt wobbles worldwide, The Press, 27th Oct 07]
Message-ID: <4734CCC9.9040601@gmail.com>

**
**

** **

**Did the world economy crash on August 9, but nobody heard it happen? 
JOHN McCRONE investigates whether the so-called credit crunch might have 
really been much more than just another fleeting economic alarm. Well, 
was there a crash or not? **

Everybody in money circles is still talking about "credit crunch 
Thursday", August 9, the day when all the big international banks simply 
stopped lending to each other, as jitters over the enormous extent of 
bad debts riddling world financial markets suddenly turned to tremors.

Unable to trust each other on credit-crunch Thursday, the banks all 
panicked and turned off the taps. The flow of interbank lending needed 
to keep the wheels of the global economy spinning dried to a trickle.

It was unprecedented. It was like a run on the banks -- but by other banks.

 

Read the full article at http://www.stuff.co.nz/4251617a13135.html

 

 


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From cmhensch at gmail.com  Sat Nov 10 14:56:12 2007
From: cmhensch at gmail.com (Christoph Hensch)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 08:56:12 +1300
Subject: [LE] As good as Gold
Message-ID: <47360CDC.3040701@gmail.com>

A Southern Nevada businessman trumped the IRS in federal court by 
challenging America's dual monetary system. Las Vegas atterney Joel 
Hansen details the case.

STORY BY MIKE ZIGLER
http://www.liberty-watch.com/volume03/issue08/coverstory.php

On a 106-degree May afternoon in 2003, government agents raided several 
establishments belonging to Southern Nevada businessman Robert ?Bobby? 
Kahre. With guns drawn, officials held more than 20 handcuffed workers 
in the sun without water as agents collected records and other materials.

Kahre hadn?t committed a crime. He had upset the Internal Revenue 
Service by paying his workers based on the face value of gold and silver 
coins, versus the market value in the Federal Reserve system (the value 
of the coins in U.S. paper dollars). Even though the coins were in 
circulation, displayed a face value, and were regulated by Congress, the 
IRS?s confusing and endless tax code did not determine how to handle 
these gold and silver coins if used for payroll. The tax code only 
references dollars. It does not distinguish between coined money and 
paper money.

Kahre didn?t opt for the precious metal bullion system without first 
doing his homework. He consulted monetary experts, engaged in extensive 
research, and even met with congressmen. Kahre?s conclusion was simple: 
While the currency in the precious-metal system was greater in value 
than the currency in the other system, as money and a medium of 
exchange, the law knows no difference between the face value of both 
currencies.

The IRS expected Kahre to report his workers? earnings based on the 
coins? market value in the Federal Reserve system. Instead, he didn?t 
report or pay anything at all because the face value of the coins fell 
below the reporting threshold. The IRS alleged that Kahre and the other 
defendants paid at least $114 million (based on the Federal Reserve 
system) to workers. The use of these coins in trade is a direct 
challenge to the fiat money system now in place.

?Bobby Kahre is the only person in the world I know of with the courage 
to do that,? said Joel Hansen, a Las Vegas attorney who represented one 
of the nine defendants in the case.

While the purpose of the case was to identify the intent of the 
defendants, the trial that followed tested America?s dual monetary 
system and further validated that the U.S. greenback is quickly becoming 
more and more a worthless piece of paper.

In 1985, Ron Paul and other congressmen challenged our country?s 
currency system, which was monopolized by Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs) ? 
the familiar greenbacks in American wallets. The congressmen 
successfully pursued the Gold Bullion Coin Act, which required the U.S. 
government to mint and place gold coins in denominations of $50, $25, 
$10 and $5 into circulation based on demand. The coins are made of 91.67 
percent pure gold.

The ultimate purpose of the act was to allow Americans to invest in 
gold. However, it also brought sanity back to this country?s monetary 
system by establishing a dual system. Instead of the Federal Reserve 
solely providing the money supply by endlessly printing FRNs, the U.S. 
government now minted and circulated precious metal coins.

In the mid-?90s, Kahre began exercising this alternate system. He 
compensated workers for their labor in the form of these gold and silver 
coins versus FRNs. The workers calculated their income and tax liability 
based on the face value of the coins.

One gold coin with a face value of $50 currently equals $806 in FRNs. If 
a worker earns a $50 gold coin each week, that person takes home an 
annual income of $2,600 based on the precious metal system, which is 
below the income-tax reporting threshold for an employee. However, the 
value of the coins in FRNs ? $41,912 ? is not. That?s the basic idea.

The IRS did not fancy Kahre?s gold-and-silver payroll system, and after 
seven years of operating his family businesses in this fashion, he and 
eight others found themselves as defendants in a Las Vegas federal 
courtroom. Kahre was charged with 109 counts of tax-related crimes, 
varying from tax evasion to willful failure to file and conspiracy to 
evade taxes. Fifty-two other counts were divided among the other defendants.

While the case was about the intent of the defendants, it raised several 
issues. There was the issue of whether or not Kahre?s workers were 
considered independent contractors, who are responsible for paying their 
own taxes, or employees, who have their taxes withheld by their employer 
each pay period. Then there?s the issue of America?s dual monetary 
system. If there are two monetary systems, and the value of one system?s 
currency is greater than the other beyond its face value, what is the 
standard for determining the value of taxable income?

No Federal Court of Appeals has ever ruled that the gold coins in 
question must be reported to the IRS based on FRN market value.

?The defense showed that the defendants believed in good faith that a 
Federal Reserve Note is not the standard because Congress created the 
dual monetary system,? Hansen said. ?The defendants believed that gold 
and silver coins are just as legitimate and legal as our other tender, 
the FRN.?

Kahre certainly caught the attention of the IRS. In addition to 
operating his businesses via the gold-and-silver payroll system, 
according to testimony at the trial, he helped 35 other contracting 
companies do the same.

But even though Kahre and his colleagues followed the dual monetary 
system mandated by Congress, the IRS didn?t care. To America?s most 
feared agency, the bottom line was Kahre?s workers weren?t taxed enough 
for their labor.

Based partially on cases that pre-dated the 1985 Gold Bullion Coin Act, 
the judge in the case did not allow defense attorneys to argue that 
Kahre was justified to pay workers based on the face value of the coins. 
Based on case law, the court concluded that income had to be calculated 
based on the FRN fair market value, rather than upon the face value.

A flaw with some of those cases was that each referred to double-eagle 
gold coins, which Franklin D. Roosevelt outlawed in 1934. Those coins 
are no longer in circulation like the coins minted by the U.S. 
government following the 1985 Act. The double-eagle coins were deemed to 
be property for tax purposes in those old cases.

Of course, the judge?s rule was binding upon the parties and was 
followed by the defense attorneys at the trial. Hansen, under the good 
faith belief defense, was able to present evidence that his specific 
client, Alex Loglia, who performed research work for Kahre, did not have 
intent to commit tax crimes. This interesting twist allowed jurors to 
still hear the argument that Kahre was justified to pay workers based on 
the face value of the coins. The U.S. Supreme Court had long before 
ruled, in the Cheek case, that a good defense in a tax-evasion case is a 
person had good faith in not following certain tax laws.

?The Supreme Court said, if they don?t have criminal intent, then they 
are not guilty of tax evasion,? Hansen explained. ?That doesn?t mean you 
don?t have to pay the tax, but it means you didn?t commit a crime and 
won?t go to jail for a felony.?

In 2005, Loglia penned a paper that earned him an ?A? from his law 
school professor Jay Bybee (who just happens to also be a 9th Circuit 
judge) on the gold-coin issue and the separation of powers. His paper 
took the position that, under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 5 of the 
Constitution, Congress alone had the power to coin money and set its value.

Loglia?s position was that the judicial branch does not have this power.

?The judge applied those old court cases, but we were still able to make 
the argument that Alex was not criminally liable because he believed in 
good faith in the use of the face value of the gold and silver coins for 
tax purposes,? Hansen said. ?Loglia?s 100-page legal paper was great 
evidence for the jury of his good faith belief.?

Beyond the courtroom, there is another significant issue with the Kahre 
case ? it gives attention to the ever-decreasing value of the Federal 
Reserve Note.

One Euro is now worth $1.45 in FRNs. A Chinese Yuan buys the same as 
$1.34 in FRNs. Even the Canadian dollar is now more valuable than our 
paper currency. Compared to the American buck, it?ll buy seven cents 
more in goods and services.

?Because of how much stronger the Euro is compared to an American FRN, 
the Federal Reserve just pumped up to $50 billion of FRNs into Federal 
Reserve banks to prop up the banks,? Hansen said. ?But when they do 
that, every dollar that you have in your pocket is now worth less.?

However, America?s other monetary system ? gold and silver coins ? does 
not decrease in value. It becomes more valuable in terms of FRNs. 
Americans, though, rely on the FRN, and its rapid decline will sooner 
than later decimate the middle class, Hansen said.

Take socialist Karl Marx?s theory, for example. He believed the most 
effective way to obliterate the middle class involved a system of 
progressive taxation coupled with inflation. In the Federal Reserve?s 
case, if the bank continues to inflate the currency so that everybody 
moves into higher and higher tax brackets, eventually everybody will pay 
30 to 40 percent of their income to taxes in Federal Reserve Notes, all 
while the FRN decreases in value due to inflation.

?By using the gold coins, Kahre was beating Karl Marx, the socialists 
and the liberals who want people to pay more and more so they can have 
bigger and bigger government,? Hansen said. ?Kahre challenged the whole 
system and that?s why the IRS came down so hard on him and his associates.

?The IRS doesn?t want this going on; they want you to use their fiat 
money and be forced into higher tax brackets through progressive 
taxation coupled with inflation. That way there?s no limit on the money 
they can issue and inflate.?

On Sept. 17, after four months of trial and days of deliberation, the 
Las Vegas federal jury returned with its verdicts. The courtroom was 
crowded as the IRS and Department of Justice filled the entire area on 
their side of the chambers with its officials.

Hansen was uncertain of what to expect. He just hoped that the jurors 
listened closely to the evidence presented.

?I could tell in the closing arguments, as I was watching the jury, that 
they were sympathetic to what I was saying. But what they were going to 
do, I did not know,? he recalled. ?I think the government, because it 
had packed the courtroom, was confident they were going to get numerous 
guilty verdicts.?

Rather, jurors delivered zero guilty verdicts. Three defendants, all 
workers, were acquitted as well as Kahre?s mother, who worked as a 
runner for her son?s businesses. Two other defendants were partly 
acquitted ? the jury hung on one count each. The jury also hung on all 
counts faced by Kahre, Loglia and Kahre?s sister, resulting in mistrials.

?I?m telling you that I have never seen such a dejected group of people 
leave a courtroom in my life,? Hansen said of DOJ and IRS officials. 
?They were shocked. Of course, we were pleased.

?The thing is, they had 161 counts and they did not get a guilty verdict 
on a single one. They got a big goose egg. We didn?t get not-guilty 
verdicts for everyone, but the government didn?t get anything.?

The IRS was supposed to notify the judge in late October if the agency 
intended to retry the five defendants on the charges that resulted in a 
hung jury. The government waffled, indicating they would pursue another 
grand jury and issue superceding indictments. More information will be 
known by mid-November.

Looking back, Hansen recalls what may have been a key turning point in 
the trial. The government called three accountants to testify. The 
defense asked each one, ?What is the proper way to calculate income for 
purposes of the Internal Revenue Code if you are paid in a gold coin 
that has a $50 face value on it?? All three of them responded, ?I do not 
know; I?ll have to research that.?

?One of them had a masters degree in taxation!? Hansen observed, saying 
their answers made it difficult to prove the defendants willfully 
committed tax crimes. ?If accountants and masters of taxation don?t know 
the answer to this question, how in the world can they expect anything 
different from an ordinary person who is confronted with a dual monetary 
system created by Congress??

Hansen believes it was uncalled for to prosecute Kahre and the other 
eight defendants criminally. The case revolved around a complicating and 
confusing legal issue. It should have been handled civilly, Hansen said, 
but the IRS wanted to make an example of these defendants because the 
federal government simply doesn?t want anyone paying a lower tax than 
what the feds determine should be paid.

?If a coin says it is a $50 gold piece, and it says ?In God We Trust,? 
and the law says that it is legal tender, and it is in circulation, 
isn?t it reasonable for people to think that they can calculate their 
tax liability based on that?? Hansen asks. ?If a tax accountant can?t 
answer that question, how can a common worker be guilty of a crime? The 
outcome of this case is a magnificent victory for those of us who 
believe that the United States of America should have an honest monetary 
system.?




From rafmanji at xtra.co.nz  Mon Nov 12 05:06:13 2007
From: rafmanji at xtra.co.nz (Raf Manji)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:06:13 +1300
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
In-Reply-To: <472E76B6.2060707@greens.org.nz>
Message-ID: <000001c82513$a8c92520$0301010a@RAFS>

Hi James,

 

Firstly thanks for your continuing input and very constructive approach to
discussing these issues. 

 

Secondly on the issue of infrastructure I was responding more to the actual
cost of it than the item itself. I wasn't arguing specifically for huge
infrastructure projects but more against PPP financing models. I'm glad you
mention Richard Douthwaite's EBCU proposal (which is in his book The Ecology
of Money). I discussed this with him a few times back in 2000/01 when I was
working at Trucost and we were throwing out ideas about an economic model
which had both money and resources at its heart. Our conclusion was that
probably the current system needed to collapse first which given current
developments may not be too far away. To separate money and ecosystem use is
to miss the story. Ecosystem depletion is necessary to deliver the growth
required to keep the interest beast fully fed. Recessions (2 quarters if
negative growth) occur when the interest burden overwhelms some businesses
and some people and they go bust. That mess is cleared away and the game
starts again. Depressions are a more intense process. Richard laid it all
out quite nicely in his book the Growth Illusion. 

 

So in a way you are worrying about something that is not likely to be a
problem i.e. huge infrastructure building. With an interest free economy,
less stuff needs to happen. I really hope we get a chance to sit down in
person and debate this because I think it's really important and I really
need to understand why this stance is being taken. Mind you I was told that
someone (Russell)?) attended the AMI conference in Chicago a few months ago
and got a clearer understanding of the issue.

 

I also sincerely believe that interest free money is achievable because it
is actually quite simple to implement. If we look back to 1694 and the
establishment of the Bank of England we can see that the fractional reserve
system developed then (and yes there were runs on the BoE even back then),
we can see that the industrial might of Great Britain and the US grew out of
that system. Putting money out into the system is like putting energy out
into the universe: it allows stuff to happen. It's the interest burden that
causes the wheels to fall off every 15 years. 

 

Regardless of our differences I think it's something to look at more
closely. The current inquiry into monetary policy by Parliament looks to be
a damp squib.

 

Regards

 

Raf

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: le-members-bounces at wji.com [mailto:le-members-bounces at wji.com] On
Behalf Of James Redwood
Sent: Monday, 5 November 2007 2:50 PM
To: le-members at list.wji.com
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control

 

Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding an
international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that some of you
have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion Protocol". He sees the
ideal co-ordinated global response to oil depletion as including
international and national currency reform, using FEASTA's interest-free
model. I recommend it to those of you who haven't got it, Helen can supply
it to those who wish to purchase a copy.
Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international group you
have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is the one under
recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and interest-free national
currency, along with a new international trading currency such as FEASTA's
Ebcu, in dealing directly with ecological collapse, and creating economies
of balance. 
It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader - Jeanette
Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not necessarily create
balanced economies (with regard to resource use/depletion), is valid. Raf, I
share Kevin's concern with your reply, I believe we have more than enough
large-scale infrastructure in terms of roads, electricity generation and
water supply. Your comment about "decent infrastructure" seems to imply that
in your opinion we do not have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have read
the implication incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then even here
within LE we disagree about environmental limits on economic activity. Thus
in turn we may well disagree when coming up with environmentally approriate
controls on currency issue (to replace interest), especially with regard to
public capital investment.
So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work on
indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, and
designing others, that are governed in their issue by the availability of
key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, organic fertiliser, energy,
recycled materials etc. In other words, there is no ponit in promoting
currency reform to governments, if the reform does not include clear
environmentally-based controls for currency issue to replace interest.
Otherwise there is still a strong likelihood that a governmnet will
re-nationalise currency issue, and still embark on unsustainable forms of
economic growth, funded by interest-free money.
I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am unaware of it,
perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material into a report.
I look forward to your feedback.
James



-------------- next part --------------
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From peterchallen at googlemail.com  Mon Nov 12 07:10:42 2007
From: peterchallen at googlemail.com (Peter Challen)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:10:42 +0000
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
In-Reply-To: <000001c82513$a8c92520$0301010a@RAFS>
References: <472E76B6.2060707@greens.org.nz>
	<000001c82513$a8c92520$0301010a@RAFS>
Message-ID: <1155b3ea0711120410r59c8b676kbf5f134ff99f2d9@mail.gmail.com>

Forgive me if I have already submitted this report. But is relevant to
the present exchanges.

|||||||||||||||||||||||

The United Nations Development Program called recently for new ideas to raise
huge sums of money for large sustainable environmental capital
projects every year for the foreseeable future.  The ideas had to be
submitted by 30th October and are due to be presented -- probably in
very abbreviated form -- at the ten day UN conference in Bali starting
early in December.

The London Global Table was not able to find any general publicity for
the call but it would appear that the UNDP asked NGOs for ideas --
leastways it was from a Geneva-based NGO that the information
originally came --  and the Table decided to publicise the matter as
best it could.  As things turned out, this had the advantage of
enabling us to glean a little information about the number and content
of some of the submissions. The following information is of a rough
quality and relates only to what can be obtained from the ken of Table
members:-

a.. around sixteen submissions were made
b.. nine submissions contained a proposal in some form for national
bank type interest-free loans for environmental capital projects.  A
number of these extended the proposal to the development and spreading
of productive capital more generally.  Some submissions included
proposals for various taxes (e.g. Tobin) to fund the requirement
c.. two were of a Social Credit nature (issuance of non-repayable money)
d.. three were probably of an "Islamic" nature  (as distinguished
from the nine mentioned above) and may have included the advocacy of gold
e.. the content of two is not known at all

All in all, a creditable effort and it is perhaps significant that the
submitters,  like the UNDP, appear to have little confidence in the
potential efficacy of  conventional solutions to what is now
increasingly understood to be a burgeoning global environmental
crisis.

We wait to see if this fairly weighty offering from five or more
countries moves the UNDP to serious consideration or to dump it. Will
we be on a high in December or back fighting off deep worries at
ineptitude on high.

Yours along the pilgrim way.

Peter


On 12/11/2007, Raf Manji <rafmanji at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi James,
>
>
>
> Firstly thanks for your continuing input and very constructive approach to
> discussing these issues.
>
>
>
> Secondly on the issue of infrastructure I was responding more to the actual
> cost of it than the item itself. I wasn't arguing specifically for huge
> infrastructure projects but more against PPP financing models. I'm glad you
> mention Richard Douthwaite's EBCU proposal (which is in his book The Ecology
> of Money). I discussed this with him a few times back in 2000/01 when I was
> working at Trucost and we were throwing out ideas about an economic model
> which had both money and resources at its heart. Our conclusion was that
> probably the current system needed to collapse first which given current
> developments may not be too far away. To separate money and ecosystem use is
> to miss the story. Ecosystem depletion is necessary to deliver the growth
> required to keep the interest beast fully fed. Recessions (2 quarters if
> negative growth) occur when the interest burden overwhelms some businesses
> and some people and they go bust. That mess is cleared away and the game
> starts again. Depressions are a more intense process. Richard laid it all
> out quite nicely in his book the Growth Illusion.
>
>
>
> So in a way you are worrying about something that is not likely to be a
> problem i.e. huge infrastructure building. With an interest free economy,
> less stuff needs to happen. I really hope we get a chance to sit down in
> person and debate this because I think it's really important and I really
> need to understand why this stance is being taken. Mind you I was told that
> someone (Russell)?) attended the AMI conference in Chicago a few months ago
> and got a clearer understanding of the issue.
>
>
>
> I also sincerely believe that interest free money is achievable because it
> is actually quite simple to implement. If we look back to 1694 and the
> establishment of the Bank of England we can see that the fractional reserve
> system developed then (and yes there were runs on the BoE even back then),
> we can see that the industrial might of Great Britain and the US grew out of
> that system. Putting money out into the system is like putting energy out
> into the universe: it allows stuff to happen. It's the interest burden that
> causes the wheels to fall off every 15 years.
>
>
>
> Regardless of our differences I think it's something to look at more
> closely. The current inquiry into monetary policy by Parliament looks to be
> a damp squib.
>
>
>
> Regards
>
>
>
> Raf
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: le-members-bounces at wji.com [mailto:le-members-bounces at wji.com] On
> Behalf Of James Redwood
> Sent: Monday, 5 November 2007 2:50 PM
> To: le-members at list.wji.com
> Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
>
>
>
> Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding an
> international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that some of you
> have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion Protocol". He sees the
> ideal co-ordinated global response to oil depletion as including
> international and national currency reform, using FEASTA's interest-free
> model. I recommend it to those of you who haven't got it, Helen can supply
> it to those who wish to purchase a copy.
> Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international group you
> have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is the one under
> recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and interest-free national
> currency, along with a new international trading currency such as FEASTA's
> Ebcu, in dealing directly with ecological collapse, and creating economies
> of balance.
> It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader - Jeanette
> Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not necessarily create
> balanced economies (with regard to resource use/depletion), is valid. Raf, I
> share Kevin's concern with your reply, I believe we have more than enough
> large-scale infrastructure in terms of roads, electricity generation and
> water supply. Your comment about "decent infrastructure" seems to imply that
> in your opinion we do not have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have read
> the implication incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then even here
> within LE we disagree about environmental limits on economic activity. Thus
> in turn we may well disagree when coming up with environmentally approriate
> controls on currency issue (to replace interest), especially with regard to
> public capital investment.
> So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work on
> indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, and
> designing others, that are governed in their issue by the availability of
> key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, organic fertiliser, energy,
> recycled materials etc. In other words, there is no ponit in promoting
> currency reform to governments, if the reform does not include clear
> environmentally-based controls for currency issue to replace interest.
> Otherwise there is still a strong likelihood that a governmnet will
> re-nationalise currency issue, and still embark on unsustainable forms of
> economic growth, funded by interest-free money.
> I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am unaware of it,
> perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material into a report.
> I look forward to your feedback.
> James
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> LE-Members mailing list
> LE-Members at wji.com
> http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members
>
>

From kevin_enviro at hotmail.com  Mon Nov 12 15:33:25 2007
From: kevin_enviro at hotmail.com (Kevin Moore)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 20:33:25 +0000
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
In-Reply-To: <1155b3ea0711120410r59c8b676kbf5f134ff99f2d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <472E76B6.2060707@greens.org.nz>
	<000001c82513$a8c92520$0301010a@RAFS> 
	<1155b3ea0711120410r59c8b676kbf5f134ff99f2d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY110-W3595740D1069F93C6884EFE6870@phx.gbl>


How can we have any confidence in a monetary system that does the following, a 5% change in value in a week:
 
Kevin
 









Compare:
NZDUSD=X vs    All Ords NZSE 50 Nasdaq 



> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:10:42 +0000> From: peterchallen at googlemail.com> To: rafmanji at xtra.co.nz> CC: le-members at list.wji.com> Subject: Re: [LE] Currency Issue Control> > Forgive me if I have already submitted this report. But is relevant to> the present exchanges.> > |||||||||||||||||||||||> > The United Nations Development Program called recently for new ideas to raise> huge sums of money for large sustainable environmental capital> projects every year for the foreseeable future. The ideas had to be> submitted by 30th October and are due to be presented -- probably in> very abbreviated form -- at the ten day UN conference in Bali starting> early in December.> > The London Global Table was not able to find any general publicity for> the call but it would appear that the UNDP asked NGOs for ideas --> leastways it was from a Geneva-based NGO that the information> originally came -- and the Table decided to publicise the matter as> best it could. As things turned out, this had the advantage of> enabling us to glean a little information about the number and content> of some of the submissions. The following information is of a rough> quality and relates only to what can be obtained from the ken of Table> members:-> > a.. around sixteen submissions were made> b.. nine submissions contained a proposal in some form for national> bank type interest-free loans for environmental capital projects. A> number of these extended the proposal to the development and spreading> of productive capital more generally. Some submissions included> proposals for various taxes (e.g. Tobin) to fund the requirement> c.. two were of a Social Credit nature (issuance of non-repayable money)> d.. three were probably of an "Islamic" nature (as distinguished> from the nine mentioned above) and may have included the advocacy of gold> e.. the content of two is not known at all> > All in all, a creditable effort and it is perhaps significant that the> submitters, like the UNDP, appear to have little confidence in the> potential efficacy of conventional solutions to what is now> increasingly understood to be a burgeoning global environmental> crisis.> > We wait to see if this fairly weighty offering from five or more> countries moves the UNDP to serious consideration or to dump it. Will> we be on a high in December or back fighting off deep worries at> ineptitude on high.> > Yours along the pilgrim way.> > Peter> > > On 12/11/2007, Raf Manji <rafmanji at xtra.co.nz> wrote:> >> >> >> > Hi James,> >> >> >> > Firstly thanks for your continuing input and very constructive approach to> > discussing these issues.> >> >> >> > Secondly on the issue of infrastructure I was responding more to the actual> > cost of it than the item itself. I wasn't arguing specifically for huge> > infrastructure projects but more against PPP financing models. I'm glad you> > mention Richard Douthwaite's EBCU proposal (which is in his book The Ecology> > of Money). I discussed this with him a few times back in 2000/01 when I was> > working at Trucost and we were throwing out ideas about an economic model> > which had both money and resources at its heart. Our conclusion was that> > probably the current system needed to collapse first which given current> > developments may not be too far away. To separate money and ecosystem use is> > to miss the story. Ecosystem depletion is necessary to deliver the growth> > required to keep the interest beast fully fed. Recessions (2 quarters if> > negative growth) occur when the interest burden overwhelms some businesses> > and some people and they go bust. That mess is cleared away and the game> > starts again. Depressions are a more intense process. Richard laid it all> > out quite nicely in his book the Growth Illusion.> >> >> >> > So in a way you are worrying about something that is not likely to be a> > problem i.e. huge infrastructure building. With an interest free economy,> > less stuff needs to happen. I really hope we get a chance to sit down in> > person and debate this because I think it's really important and I really> > need to understand why this stance is being taken. Mind you I was told that> > someone (Russell)?) attended the AMI conference in Chicago a few months ago> > and got a clearer understanding of the issue.> >> >> >> > I also sincerely believe that interest free money is achievable because it> > is actually quite simple to implement. If we look back to 1694 and the> > establishment of the Bank of England we can see that the fractional reserve> > system developed then (and yes there were runs on the BoE even back then),> > we can see that the industrial might of Great Britain and the US grew out of> > that system. Putting money out into the system is like putting energy out> > into the universe: it allows stuff to happen. It's the interest burden that> > causes the wheels to fall off every 15 years.> >> >> >> > Regardless of our differences I think it's something to look at more> > closely. The current inquiry into monetary policy by Parliament looks to be> > a damp squib.> >> >> >> > Regards> >> >> >> > Raf> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message-----> > From: le-members-bounces at wji.com [mailto:le-members-bounces at wji.com] On> > Behalf Of James Redwood> > Sent: Monday, 5 November 2007 2:50 PM> > To: le-members at list.wji.com> > Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control> >> >> >> > Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding an> > international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that some of you> > have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion Protocol". He sees the> > ideal co-ordinated global response to oil depletion as including> > international and national currency reform, using FEASTA's interest-free> > model. I recommend it to those of you who haven't got it, Helen can supply> > it to those who wish to purchase a copy.> > Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international group you> > have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is the one under> > recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and interest-free national> > currency, along with a new international trading currency such as FEASTA's> > Ebcu, in dealing directly with ecological collapse, and creating economies> > of balance.> > It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader - Jeanette> > Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not necessarily create> > balanced economies (with regard to resource use/depletion), is valid. Raf, I> > share Kevin's concern with your reply, I believe we have more than enough> > large-scale infrastructure in terms of roads, electricity generation and> > water supply. Your comment about "decent infrastructure" seems to imply that> > in your opinion we do not have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have read> > the implication incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then even here> > within LE we disagree about environmental limits on economic activity. Thus> > in turn we may well disagree when coming up with environmentally approriate> > controls on currency issue (to replace interest), especially with regard to> > public capital investment.> > So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work on> > indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, and> > designing others, that are governed in their issue by the availability of> > key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, organic fertiliser, energy,> > recycled materials etc. In other words, there is no ponit in promoting> > currency reform to governments, if the reform does not include clear> > environmentally-based controls for currency issue to replace interest.> > Otherwise there is still a strong likelihood that a governmnet will> > re-nationalise currency issue, and still embark on unsustainable forms of> > economic growth, funded by interest-free money.> > I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am unaware of it,> > perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material into a report.> > I look forward to your feedback.> > James> >> >> > _______________________________________________> > LE-Members mailing list> > LE-Members at wji.com> > http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members> >> >> _______________________________________________> LE-Members mailing list> LE-Members at wji.com> http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members
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From rafmanji at xtra.co.nz  Mon Nov 12 16:23:14 2007
From: rafmanji at xtra.co.nz (Raf Manji)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 10:23:14 +1300
Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
In-Reply-To: <BAY110-W3595740D1069F93C6884EFE6870@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <000401c82572$3d85d6a0$0301010a@RAFS>

Kevin,

 

We have to take one step at a time. The international currency trading
system can't be dismantled overnight. The moves we have seen recently are
merely a symptom of the instability in the system itself. Until we resolve
the issue of interest on money this will not change and neither will our
environmental conditions. 

 

The RBNZ should be selling NZ$ till the cows come home up at these lofty
levels and thus domesticating our overseas debt which could then be
neutralised internally. NZ is well placed to undertake such serious monetary
reform. It has precedents from the 1930s and plenty of experience from which
to work. 

 

Regards

 

Raf

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin Moore [mailto:kevin_enviro at hotmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 13 November 2007 9:33 AM
To: peterchallen at gmail.com; Raf Manji
Cc: le-members at list.wji.com
Subject: RE: [LE] Currency Issue Control

 


How can we have any confidence in a monetary system that does the following,
a 5% change in value in a week:
 
Kevin
 



Compare:

NZDUSD=X vs       All Ords   NZSE 50   Nasdaq 

 

 Chart <http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=NZDUSD=X> 

 



> Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 12:10:42 +0000
> From: peterchallen at googlemail.com
> To: rafmanji at xtra.co.nz
> CC: le-members at list.wji.com
> Subject: Re: [LE] Currency Issue Control
> 
> Forgive me if I have already submitted this report. But is relevant to
> the present exchanges.
> 
> |||||||||||||||||||||||
> 
> The United Nations Development Program called recently for new ideas to
raise
> huge sums of money for large sustainable environmental capital
> projects every year for the foreseeable future. The ideas had to be
> submitted by 30th October and are due to be presented -- probably in
> very abbreviated form -- at the ten day UN conference in Bali starting
> early in December.
> 
> The London Global Table was not able to find any general publicity for
> the call but it would appear that the UNDP asked NGOs for ideas --
> leastways it was from a Geneva-based NGO that the information
> originally came -- and the Table decided to publicise the matter as
> best it could. As things turned out, this had the advantage of
> enabling us to glean a little information about the number and content
> of some of the submissions. The following information is of a rough
> quality and relates only to what can be obtained from the ken of Table
> members:-
> 
> a.. around sixteen submissions were made
> b.. nine submissions contained a proposal in some form for national
> bank type interest-free loans for environmental capital projects. A
> number of these extended the proposal to the development and spreading
> of productive capital more generally. Some submissions included
> proposals for various taxes (e.g. Tobin) to fund the requirement
> c.. two were of a Social Credit nature (issuance of non-repayable money)
> d.. three were probably of an "Islamic" nature (as distinguished
> from the nine mentioned above) and may have included the advocacy of gold
> e.. the content of two is not known at all
> 
> All in all, a creditable effort and it is perhaps significant that the
> submitters, like the UNDP, appear to have little confidence in the
> potential efficacy of conventional solutions to what is now
> increasingly understood to be a burgeoning global environmental
> crisis.
> 
> We wait to see if this fairly weighty offering from five or more
> countries moves the UNDP to serious consideration or to dump it. Will
> we be on a high in December or back fighting off deep worries at
> ineptitude on high.
> 
> Yours along the pilgrim way.
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> On 12/11/2007, Raf Manji <rafmanji at xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi James,
> >
> >
> >
> > Firstly thanks for your continuing input and very constructive approach
to
> > discussing these issues.
> >
> >
> >
> > Secondly on the issue of infrastructure I was responding more to the
actual
> > cost of it than the item itself. I wasn't arguing specifically for huge
> > infrastructure projects but more against PPP financing models. I'm glad
you
> > mention Richard Douthwaite's EBCU proposal (which is in his book The
Ecology
> > of Money). I discussed this with him a few times back in 2000/01 when I
was
> > working at Trucost and we were throwing out ideas about an economic
model
> > which had both money and resources at its heart. Our conclusion was that
> > probably the current system needed to collapse first which given current
> > developments may not be too far away. To separate money and ecosystem
use is
> > to miss the story. Ecosystem depletion is necessary to deliver the
growth
> > required to keep the interest beast fully fed. Recessions (2 quarters if
> > negative growth) occur when the interest burden overwhelms some
businesses
> > and some people and they go bust. That mess is cleared away and the game
> > starts again. Depressions are a more intense process. Richard laid it
all
> > out quite nicely in his book the Growth Illusion.
> >
> >
> >
> > So in a way you are worrying about something that is not likely to be a
> > problem i.e. huge infrastructure building. With an interest free
economy,
> > less stuff needs to happen. I really hope we get a chance to sit down in
> > person and debate this because I think it's really important and I
really
> > need to understand why this stance is being taken. Mind you I was told
that
> > someone (Russell)?) attended the AMI conference in Chicago a few months
ago
> > and got a clearer understanding of the issue.
> >
> >
> >
> > I also sincerely believe that interest free money is achievable because
it
> > is actually quite simple to implement. If we look back to 1694 and the
> > establishment of the Bank of England we can see that the fractional
reserve
> > system developed then (and yes there were runs on the BoE even back
then),
> > we can see that the industrial might of Great Britain and the US grew
out of
> > that system. Putting money out into the system is like putting energy
out
> > into the universe: it allows stuff to happen. It's the interest burden
that
> > causes the wheels to fall off every 15 years.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regardless of our differences I think it's something to look at more
> > closely. The current inquiry into monetary policy by Parliament looks to
be
> > a damp squib.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards
> >
> >
> >
> > Raf
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: le-members-bounces at wji.com [mailto:le-members-bounces at wji.com] On
> > Behalf Of James Redwood
> > Sent: Monday, 5 November 2007 2:50 PM
> > To: le-members at list.wji.com
> > Subject: [LE] Currency Issue Control
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi all, the recent discussion, and the contact from Oscar regarding an
> > international grouping, has gelled in my mind. I am hoping that some of
you
> > have read Richard Heinberg's recent "Oil Depletion Protocol". He sees
the
> > ideal co-ordinated global response to oil depletion as including
> > international and national currency reform, using FEASTA's interest-free
> > model. I recommend it to those of you who haven't got it, Helen can
supply
> > it to those who wish to purchase a copy.
> > Oscar, I would like to suggest an issue that the international group you
> > have suggested could also be concerned with. And that is the one under
> > recent discussion here at LE: the use of ccs and interest-free national
> > currency, along with a new international trading currency such as
FEASTA's
> > Ebcu, in dealing directly with ecological collapse, and creating
economies
> > of balance.
> > It is my opinion, despite comments, that our Green Party leader -
Jeanette
> > Fitzsimons' criticism, that interest-free money does not necessarily
create
> > balanced economies (with regard to resource use/depletion), is valid.
Raf, I
> > share Kevin's concern with your reply, I believe we have more than
enough
> > large-scale infrastructure in terms of roads, electricity generation and
> > water supply. Your comment about "decent infrastructure" seems to imply
that
> > in your opinion we do not have that at the moment. I am sorry if I have
read
> > the implication incorrectly. If I am not mistaken though, then even here
> > within LE we disagree about environmental limits on economic activity.
Thus
> > in turn we may well disagree when coming up with environmentally
approriate
> > controls on currency issue (to replace interest), especially with regard
to
> > public capital investment.
> > So perhaps either LE or Oscar's proposed group, or both, could work on
> > indentifying existing currencies - such as time-based currencies, and
> > designing others, that are governed in their issue by the availability
of
> > key resources: fresh water, labour, arable land, organic fertiliser,
energy,
> > recycled materials etc. In other words, there is no ponit in promoting
> > currency reform to governments, if the reform does not include clear
> > environmentally-based controls for currency issue to replace interest.
> > Otherwise there is still a strong likelihood that a governmnet will
> > re-nationalise currency issue, and still embark on unsustainable forms
of
> > economic growth, funded by interest-free money.
> > I apologise if this work has already been done and that I am unaware of
it,
> > perhaps it is just a matter of collation of material into a report.
> > I look forward to your feedback.
> > James
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > LE-Members mailing list
> > LE-Members at wji.com
> > http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> LE-Members mailing list
> LE-Members at wji.com
> http://list.wji.com/mailman/listinfo/le-members

  _____  

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From cmhensch at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 17:53:27 2007
From: cmhensch at gmail.com (Christoph Hensch)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:53:27 +1300
Subject: [LE] American Empire Falling with Dollar -- Former Asst Secty
	Treasurer for Reagan
Message-ID: <d58bd5020711121453j4e936f11o307d968583f3d85d@mail.gmail.com>

*The American empire is falling with the dollar*

by Paul Craig Roberts
Global Research <http://www.globalresearch.ca/>, November 8, 2007
Online Journal <http://onlinejournal.com/>

*Email this article to a friend*
*Print this article*

The US dollar is still officially the world's reserve currency, but it
cannot purchase the services of Brazilian super model Gisele Bundchen.
Gisele required the $30 million she earned during the first half of this
year to be paid in euros.

Gisele is not alone in her forecast of the dollar's fate. The First Post
(UK) reports that Jim Rogers, a former partner of billionaire George Soros,
is selling his home and all possessions in order to convert all his wealth
into Chinese yuan.

Meanwhile, American economists continue to preach that offshoring is good
for the US economy and that Bush's war spending is keeping the economy
going. The practitioners of supply and demand have yet to figure out that
the dollar's supply is sinking the dollar's price and along with it American
power.

The macho super patriots who support the Bush regime still haven't caught on
that US superpower status rests on the dollar being the reserve currency,
not on a military unable to occupy Baghdad. If the dollar were not the world
currency, the US would have to earn enough foreign currencies to pay for its
737 oversees bases, an impossibility considering America's $800 billion
trade deficit.

When the dollar ceases to be the reserve currency, foreigners will cease to
finance the US trade and budget deficits, and the American Empire along with
its wars will disappear overnight. Perhaps Bush will be able to get a World
Bank loan, or maybe one from the "Chavez bank," to bring the troops home
from Iraq and Afghanistan.

Foreign leaders, observing that offshoring and war are accelerating
America's relative economic decline, no longer treat the US with the
deference to which Washington is accustomed. Ecuador's president, Rafael
Correa, recently refused Washington's demand to renew the lease on the Manta
air base in Ecuador. He told Washington that the US could have a base in
Ecuador if Ecuador could have a military base in the US.

When Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez addressed the UN, he crossed himself
as he stood at the podium. Referring to President Bush, Chavez said,
"Yesterday the devil came here, and it smells of sulfur still today." Bush,
said Chavez, was standing "right here, talking as if he owned the world."

In his state of the nation message last year, Russian president Vladimir
Putin said that Bush's blathering about democracy was nothing but a cloak
for the pursuit of American self-interests at the expense of other peoples.
"We are aware what is going on in the world. Comrade wolf knows whom to eat,
and he eats without listening, and he's clearly not going to listen to
anyone." In May 2007, Putin criticized the neocon regime in Washington for
"disrespect for human life" and "claims to global exclusiveness, just as it
was in the time of the Third Reich."

Even America's British allies regard President Bush as a threat to world
peace and the second most dangerous man alive. Bush is edged out in polls by
Osama bin Laden, but is regarded as more dangerous than Iran's demonized
president and North Korea's Kim Jong-il.

President Bush has achieved his dismal world standing despite spending $1.6
billion of hard-pressed Americans' tax money on public relations between
2003 and 2006.

Clearly, America's leader and America's currency are poorly regarded. Is
there a solution?

Perhaps the answer lies in those 737 overseas bases. If those bases were
brought home and shared among the 50 states, each state would gain 15 new
military bases.

Imagine what this would mean: The end of the housing slump. A reduction in
the trade deficit. And the end of the war on terror.

Who would dare attack a country with 15 new military bases in every state in
addition to the existing ones? Wherever a terrorist turned, he would find
himself surrounded by soldiers.

All of the dollars currently spent abroad to support 737 overseas bases
would be spent at home. Income for foreigners would become income for
Americans, and the trade deficit would shrink.

The impact of the 737 military base payrolls on the US economy would end the
housing crisis and bring back the 140,000 highly paid financial services
jobs, the loss of which this year has cost the US $42 billion in consumer
income. Foreclosures and bankruptcies would plummet.

If this isn't enough to turn the dollar around, President Bush's pledge not
to appoint an attorney general if Michael Mukasey is not confirmed offers
more promise. If the Democrats will defeat Mukasey's nomination, there are
other superfluous cabinet departments that can be closed down in addition to
the US Department of Torture and Indefinite Detention.

The American empire is being unwound on the battlefields of Iraq and
Afghanistan. The year is two months from being over, but already in 2007,
despite the touted "surge," deaths of US soldiers are the highest of any
year of the war.

The Taliban are the ones who are surging. They have taken control of a third
district in Western Afghanistan. Turkey and the Kurds are on the verge of
turning northern Iraq into a new war zone, another demonstration of American
impotence.

Bush's wars have endangered America's puppet regimes. Bush's Pakistani
puppet, Musharraf, is fighting for his life. By resorting to "emergency
rule" and oppressive measures, Musharraf has intensified his opposition.
When Musharraf falls, thanks to Bush, the Islamists will have nukes.

American generals used to say that the wars Bush started in the Middle East
would take 10 years to win. On Oct. 31, General John Abizaid, former
commander of US forces in the Middle East, put paid to that optimistic
forecast. Speaking at Carnegie Mellon University, Gen. Abizaid said it would
be 50 years before US troops can leave the Middle East.

There is no possibility of the US remaining in the Middle East for a half
century. The dollar and US power are already on their last legs, unbeknownst
to Democratic leaders Pelosi and Reid who are preparing yet another blank
check for Bush's latest request for $200 billion in supplementary war
funding.

There isn't any money with which to fund Bush's lost war. It will have to be
borrowed from China.

The Romans brought on their own demise, but it took them centuries. Bush has
finished America in a mere seven years.

Even as Gisele throws off the dollar's hegemony, Brazil, Venezuela, Ecuador,
Bolivia, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Columbia are declaring
independence from the IMF and World Bank, instruments of US financial
hegemony, by creating their own development bank, thus bringing to an end US
suzerainty over South America.

An empire that has lost its backyard is finished.
*Paul Craig Roberts [email him <paulcraigroberts at yahoo.com>] was Assistant
Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration. He is the
author of Supply-Side
Revolution : An Insider's Account of Policymaking in Washington
<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067485621X/103-9747828-0329461>; Alienation
and the Soviet Economy<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0945999631/002-8915021-8428856?n=283155>and
Meltdown:
Inside the Soviet
Economy<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932790801/002-8915021-8428856?n=283155>,
and is the co-author with Lawrence M. Stratton of The Tyranny of Good
Intentions : How Prosecutors and Bureaucrats Are Trampling the Constitution
in the Name of Justice<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?tag=vdare&creative=373489&camp=211189&link_code=as3&path=ASIN/076152553X>.
Click here <http://www.vdare.com/pb/death_of_due_process.htm> for Peter
Brimelow's Forbes Magazine interview with Roberts about the recent epidemic
of prosecutorial misconduct.*

 *Global Research Articles by Paul Craig Roberts*
<http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=listByAuthor&authorFirst=Paul+Craig&authorName=Roberts>
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From cmhensch at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 03:41:53 2007
From: cmhensch at gmail.com (Christoph Hensch)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 21:41:53 +1300
Subject: [LE] [Fwd: Re: American Empire Falling with Dollar -- Former Asst
 Secty Treasurer for Reagan]
Message-ID: <47396351.2060901@gmail.com>

Thank you Allen, for this post. As you say,food for thought, and it is 
very difficult to assess the veracity of what you share with us. Yet, it 
is not the first time I hear of the Amero ...

Christoph

***

Christoph, I leave it for you to decide whether this is of sufficient
interest to be worth posting to LE.
I offer here what is in many ways the worst kind of information in that I
am missing most of the critical foundations from which people can measure
its veracity - such as a confirmable identified source, and an accurate
recall of specifics.However, I offer it anyway as best I can recall it because of its
timeliness in relation to Christoph's post below.
I am currently in Montreal.
On the way in from the airport on Friday night (Canadian time)the cabbie
wasn't too interested in talking because he was listening to a guy on the
radio with, apparently, a 15-20 year track record of making accurate
predictions of where things are going on the financial scene. He wasn't a
nutcase fortune teller... he was some alternative economic analyst. That
much was clear from the calibre of his analyis and the details he was
clearly conversant with.The young cabbie was sufficiently articulate and
streetsmart that I give reasonable credence to his assessment that the
commentator's credentials are sound.(At least as sound as any of the
would-be experts whose advice is commonly heard on public radio.)
The guy reckons the US dollar is about to collapse totally. He reckons
corporate America is actively encouraging it. He says within a year and
probably sooner the US dollar will be on par with the mexican peso -
massive bankruptcies... and the whole of Nth America will switch to a
common currency: the Amero.He says the Ameros are already being minted, although as yet without any
legal provision being made.He suggested a twofold reason: to create a single Nth American trading
block & currency to compete with the Euro, and in short time the Chinese
block that will control AsiaThe total collapse of the greenback, he suggests, is the trigger needed to
create the crisis that will drive the public of Canada,& the US to accept
a single Nth American currency - especially one including Mexico.
The interesting thing in the wake of Christoph's post is that this
commentator wasn't predicting the collapse of the American Empire. The 2nd
reason he gave for the delibertae collapsing of the greenback was that the
collapse of the US dollar will make a vast chunk of resources open to the
corporates encouraging the collapse.He was predicting business as usual for the powers behind corporate
America, - and architects of the World Bank - who are already positioning
themselves outside the US dollar economy, in preparation for enhancing
their control once billions of dollars worth of US currency based assets
are rendered near valueless - meaning not just assets of Americans, but
foreign governments and anyone else reliant on the value of the greenback.
Forward delivery contracts valued in US dollars for example. That probably
means Fonterra's dairy and most other NZ exports at a guess. Currency
hedges are unlikely, I'm guessing, to cover such dramatic shifts as the
greenback dropping to a tenth of its current value.He reckons the price of gold will hit $1000 an ounce and silver is about
to become the new standard on which the world's currencies are based.

It was kinda spooky stuff to be welcomed to North America by.

In the past couple of days since, the locals have repeatedly referred to
the ripples already going through the currency scene in the wake of the US
dollar dropping below the Canadian dollar for the first time. Nobody seems
entirely sure how to take it.
The commentator suggested examination of shifts in ownership of gold and
silver mines over recent years would reveal the moves by certain
corporates to position themselves to control the new asset base.
It may be smoke in the wind. It may be a glimpse of what's coming. I can't
assess it from here.
Food for thought.
Allan

> *The American empire is falling with the dollar*
>
> by Paul Craig Roberts
> Global Research <http://www.globalresearch.ca/>, November 8, 2007
> Online Journal <http://onlinejournal.com/>
>
> *Email this article to a friend*
> *Print this article*
>
> The US dollar is still officially the world's reserve currency, but it
> cannot purchase the services of Brazilian super model Gisele Bundchen.
> Gisele required the $30 million she earned during the first half of
> this year to be paid in euros.
>
> Gisele is not alone in her forecast of the dollar's fate. The First
> Post (UK) reports that Jim Rogers, a former partner of billionaire
> George Soros, is selling his home and all possessions in order to
> convert all his wealth into Chinese yuan.
>
> Meanwhile, American economists continue to preach that offshoring is
> good for the US economy and that Bush's war spending is keeping the
> economy going. The practitioners of supply and demand have yet to
> figure out that the dollar's supply is sinking the dollar's price and
> along with it American power.
>
> The macho super patriots who support the Bush regime still haven't
> caught on that US superpower status rests on the dollar being the
> reserve currency, not on a military unable to occupy Baghdad. If the
> dollar were not the world currency, the US would have to earn enough
> foreign currencies to pay for its 737 oversees bases, an impossibility
> considering America's $800 billion trade deficit.
>
> When the dollar ceases to be the reserve currency, foreigners will
> cease to finance the US trade and budget deficits, and the American
> Empire along with its wars will disappear overnight. Perhaps Bush will
> be able to get a World Bank loan, or maybe one from the "Chavez bank,"
> to bring the troops home from Iraq and Afghanistan.
>
> Foreign leaders, observing that offshoring and war are accelerating
> America's relative economic decline, no longer treat the US with the
> deference to which Washington is accustomed. Ecuador's president,
> Rafael Correa, recently refused Washington's demand to renew the lease
> on the Manta air base in Ecuador. He told Washington that the US could
> have a base in Ecuador if Ecuador could have a military base in the US.
>
> When Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez addressed the UN, he crossed
> himself as he stood at the podium. Referring to President Bush, Chavez
> said, "Yesterday the devil came here, and it smells of sulfur still
> today." Bush, said Chavez, was standing "right here, talking as if he
> owned the world."
>
> In his state of the nation message last year, Russian president
> Vladimir Putin said that Bush's blathering about democracy was nothing
> but a cloak for the pursuit of American self-interests at the expense
> of other peoples. "We are aware what is going on in the world. Comrade
> wolf knows whom to eat, and he eats without listening, and he's clearly
> not going to listen to anyone." In May 2007, Putin criticized the
> neocon regime in Washington for "disrespect for human life" and "claims
> to global exclusiveness, just as it was in the time of the Third
> Reich."
>
> Even America's British allies regard President Bush as a threat to
> world peace and the second most dangerous man alive. Bush is edged out
> in polls by Osama bin Laden, but is regarded as more dangerous than
> Iran's demonized president and North Korea's Kim Jong-il.
>
> President Bush has achieved his dismal world standing despite spending
> $1.6 billion of hard-pressed Americans' tax money on public relations
> between 2003 and 2006.
>
> Clearly, America's leader and America's currency are poorly regarded.
> Is there a solution?
>
> Perhaps the answer lies in those 737 overseas bases. If those bases
> were brought home and shared among the 50 states, each state would gain
> 15 new military bases.
>
> Imagine what this would mean: The end of the housing slump. A reduction
> in the trade deficit. And the end of the war on terror.
>
> Who would dare attack a country with 15 new military bases in every
> state in addition to the existing ones? Wherever a terrorist turned, he
> would find himself surrounded by soldiers.
>
> All of the dollars currently spent abroad to support 737 overseas bases
> would be spent at home. Income for foreigners would become income for
> Americans, and the trade deficit would shrink.
>
> The impact of the 737 military base payrolls on the US economy would
> end the housing crisis and bring back the 140,000 highly paid financial
> services jobs, the loss of which this year has cost the US $42 billion
> in consumer income. Foreclosures and bankruptcies would plummet.
>
> If this isn't enough to turn the dollar around, President Bush's pledge
> not to appoint an attorney general if Michael Mukasey is not confirmed
> offers more promise. If the Democrats will defeat Mukasey's nomination,
> there are other superfluous cabinet departments that can be closed down
> in addition to the US Department of Torture and Indefinite Detention.
>
> The American empire is being unwound on the battlefields of Iraq and
> Afghanistan. The year is two months from being over, but already in
> 2007, despite the touted "surge," deaths of US soldiers are the highest
> of any year of the war.
>
> The Taliban are the ones who are surging. They have taken control of a
> third district in Western Afghanistan. Turkey and the Kurds are on the
> verge of turning northern Iraq into a new war zone, another
> demonstration of American impotence.
>
> Bush's wars have endangered America's puppet regimes. Bush's Pakistani
> puppet, Musharraf, is fighting for his life. By resorting to "emergency
> rule" and oppressive measures, Musharraf has intensified his
> opposition. When Musharraf falls, thanks to Bush, the Islamists will
> have nukes.
>
> American generals used to say that the wars Bush started in the Middle
> East would take 10 years to win. On Oct. 31, General John Abizaid,
> former commander of US forces in the Middle East, put paid to that
> optimistic forecast. Speaking at Carnegie Mellon University, Gen.
> Abizaid said it would be 50 years before US troops can leave the Middle
> East.
>
> There is no possibility of the US remaining in the Middle East for a
> half century. The dollar and US power are already on their last legs,
> unbeknownst to Democratic leaders Pelosi and Reid who are preparing yet
> another blank check for Bush's latest request for $200 billion in
> supplementary war funding.
>
> There isn't any money with which to fund Bush's lost war. It will have
> to be borrowed from China.
>
> The Romans brought on their own demise, but it took them centuries.
> Bush has finished America in a mere seven years.
>
> Even as Gisele throws off the dollar's hegemony, Brazil, Venezuela,
> Ecuador, Bolivia, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, and Columbia are
> declaring
> independence from the IMF and World Bank, instruments of US financial
> hegemony, by creating their own development bank, thus bringing to an
> end US suzerainty over South America.
>
> An empire that has lost its backyard is finished.
> *Paul Craig Roberts [email him <paulcraigroberts at yahoo.com>] was
> Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the Reagan Administration. He is
> the
> author of Supply-Side
> Revolution : An Insider's Account of Policymaking in Washington
> <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/067485621X/103-9747828-0329461>;
> Alienation and the Soviet
> Economy<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0945999631/002-8915021-8428856?n=283155>and> Meltdown:
> Inside the Soviet
> Economy<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0932790801/002-8915021-8428856?n=283155>,> and is the co-author with Lawrence M. Stratton of The Tyranny of Good
> Intentions : How Prosecutors and Bureaucrats Are Trampling the
> Constitution in the Name of
> Justice<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?tag=vdare&creative=373489&camp=211189&link_code=as3&path=ASIN/076152553X>.> Click here <http://www.vdare.com/pb/death_of_due_process.htm> for Peter
> Brimelow's Forbes Magazine interview with Roberts about the recent
> epidemic of prosecutorial misconduct.*
>
> *Global Research Articles by Paul Craig Roberts*
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From stuartbramhall at yahoo.co.nz  Wed Nov 14 23:14:22 2007
From: stuartbramhall at yahoo.co.nz (Stuart Bramhall)
Date: Thu, 15 Nov 2007 17:14:22 +1300 (NZDT)
Subject: [LE] Taranaki Sustainable Living Fair
In-Reply-To: <4728FACF.8070305@energyservices.co.nz>
Message-ID: <948976.24859.qm@web33412.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Here is the official notice for the Taranaki Sustainable Living Fair.  Please contact me individually or Janine May if you have questions or would like a registration form.  Early Bird registration ends Jan 31.

Taranaki Sustainable Living Fair 2008
    Yarrow StadiumNew Plymouth    
5 April 2008
  Here?s a new opportunity for you  - to participate in the first Sustainable Living Fair in Taranaki.
  
   Its all about promoting a way of living that cares for both us and our environment, so we and future generations can carry on living on an abundant earth, especially in the face of the climate changes we are hearing more and more about.
    More and more people are becoming aware of environmental issues and want to know how they can make a difference.  
    And there are more and more options out there that allow people to make a difference.  
    So we are holding a Fair to bring together lots of these options for people to choose a more sustainable way of life.  
  It is also a way people can link up with others interested in sustainable living.
     We are inviting you to expand your market, reach potential new customers and promote your products and/or services by having a stall at the Fair. 
     Entry to the Fair will be by donation so it is accessible to everyone.  It will be promoted as a fun, family-oriented fair atmosphere with stalls, speakers, workshops, food and entertainment for all ages. 
  The Fair will be an ideal event for all local, regional and national businesses, organisations and groups who promote environmental and economic sustainable living practices to come together in Taranaki.
      We aim to have a range of national and local stalls of sustainable products, services and technology in the areas of: 
  
   renewable energy and improved energy conservation and efficiency,

   reduction of greenhouse gases,
    
   recycling and improved waste management,
  
   alternative transportation strategies,
  
   biointensive agriculture and organic farming,
  
   water management,
  
   building and construction materials and methods,
  
   sustainable design of houses, properties and communities,
  
   finance/money,
  
   packaging,
  
   cleaning,
  
   food, clothing
  

..and anything else environmentally sustainable.
       If you would like to participate in the Fair, please complete the attached registration form and return it to us by 28 Feb 2008.  
       
There are also other ways you can be involved in the Fair as well as being a stallholder.  Please look at the information attached.
     We welcome you to the first Taranaki Sustainable Living Fair in New Plymouth in 2008 and look forward to seeing you there.  This Fair is planned to be an annual event.
     If you really can?t be there, but would really like to be part of the Fair, 
  we can display a poster, put out some brochures at Fair for you or mention you as a supporter of the Fair for a reasonable donation.    The Fair is being organised by committee members of the Taranaki Climate Change Network, with the support of the Positive Futures Trust.
     Please direct all enquiries to:
     Janine May      9a Mayfair Place, New Plymouth
  06-7539062,  021-02707236
  sustainliving at xtra.co.nz
   


 Send instant messages to your online friends http://au.messenger.yahoo.com 
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From cmhensch at gmail.com  Thu Nov 15 13:01:20 2007
From: cmhensch at gmail.com (Christoph Hensch)
Date: Fri, 16 Nov 2007 07:01:20 +1300
Subject: [LE] =?utf-8?q?=5BFBI_Raids_Liberty_Dollar_=E2=80=93_Confiscates_?=
 =?utf-8?q?All_Ron_Paul_Dollar=5D?=
Message-ID: <473C8970.2030505@gmail.com>


Dear Liberty Dollar Supporters:

I sincerely regret to inform you that about 8:00 this morning a dozen 
FBI and Secret Service agents raided the Liberty Dollar office in 
Evansville.

For approximately six hours they took all the gold, all the silver, all 
the platinum and almost two tons of Ron Paul Dollars that where just 
delivered last Friday. They also took all the files, all the computers 
and froze our bank accounts.

We have no money. We have no products. We have no records to even know 
what was ordered or what you are owed. We have nothing but the will to 
push forward and overcome this massive assault on our liberty and our 
right to have real money as defined by the US Constitution. We should 
not to be defrauded by the fake government money.

But to make matters worse, all the gold and silver that backs up the 
paper certificates and digital currency held in the vault at Sunshine 
Mint has also been confiscated. Even the dies for mint the Gold and 
Silver Libertys have been taken.

This in spite of the fact that Edmond C. Moy, the Director of the Mint, 
acknowledged in a letter to a US Senator that the paper certificates did 
not violate Section 486 and were not illegal. But the FBI and Services 
took all the paper currency too.

The possibility of such action was the reason the Liberty Dollar was 
designed so that the vast majority of the money was in specie form and 
in the people?s hands. Of the $20 million Liberty Dollars, only about a 
million is in paper or digital form.

I regret that if you are due an order. It may be some time until it will 
be filled... if ever... it now all depends on our actions.

Everyone who has an unfulfilled order or has digital or paper currency 
should band together for a class action suit and demand redemption. We 
cannot allow the government to steal our money! Please don?t let this 
happen!!! Many of you read the articles quoting the government and 
Federal Reserve officials that the Liberty Dollar was legal. You did 
nothing wrong. You are legally entitled to your property. Let us use 
this terrible act to band together and further our goal ? to return 
America to a value based currency.

Please forward this important Alert... so everyone who possess or use 
the Liberty Dollar is aware of the situation.

Please click _HERE_ <http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php> 
to sign up for the class action lawsuit and get your property back!

If the above link does not work you can access the page by copying the 
following into your web browser. 
http://www.libertydollar.org/classaction/index.php

Thanks again for your support at this darkest time as the damn 
government and their dollar sinks to a new low.

Bernard von NotHaus

Monetary Architect


-- 
Skype me at:   cmhensch
http://cocreate26.blogspot.com



From paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 21 13:47:45 2007
From: paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com (Geoff. Waterhouse)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 10:47:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [LE] I wonder how much New Zealand Banks etc. have in USA sub prime
	loans
Message-ID: <856755.50337.qm@web30612.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Greetings members.
I had this little snippet sent to me from the USA today. I can't help wondering what might be bubbling away here. Kiwi Bank admitted to having $6 Million in Northern Rock paper, I wonder what happened to that. I also wonder how much some of the other New Zealand institutions might have in US "radioactive paper" as I have seen it described recently. I also wonder when our own limited "sub prime" problems will realy start to surface.

Goldman Sachs Group Inc.'s Global Alpha hedge fund may lose about $6 billion in assets this year, a 60 percent decline, because of trades that went awry and client withdrawals, according to two investors.
Global Alpha, which entered 2007 with more than $10 billion, lost 37 percent on investments through Nov. 14, most of it in August, said the Goldman clients, who asked not to be identified because the fund's performance is private.
? Bloomberg
 Regards to all
Geoff Waterhouse


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From paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com  Wed Nov 21 14:14:19 2007
From: paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com (Geoff. Waterhouse)
Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 11:14:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [LE] Fw: Returned mail: see transcript for details
Message-ID: <115867.84551.qm@web30603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Hello again. I pressed the wrong button first time, sorry
Regards
Geoff


----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON at mailgw3.thls.bbc.co.uk>
To: paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com
Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2007 8:09:18 AM
Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details

The original message was received at Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:05:26 GMT
from [192.168.202.119]

  ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<le-members at list.wjl.com>
    (reason: 554 5.7.1 <mailgw3.thls.bbc.co.uk[132.185.240.143]>: Client host rejected: No such user)

  ----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to grey-area.mailhostingserver.com.:
>>> DATA
<<< 554 5.7.1 <mailgw3.thls.bbc.co.uk[132.185.240.143]>: Client host rejected: No such user
554 5.0.0 Service unavailable
<<< 554 5.5.1 Error: no valid recipients

  Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2007 19:06:12 GMT
To: le-members at list.wjl.com
From: "Geoff . Waterhouse" <paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com>
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?BBC=20E=2Dmail=3A=20Rock=20expects=20=A33?=
Message-ID: <20071121_190612_040570.paihiaradisecabs at yahoo.com>
Sender: webmasters at bbc.co.uk
X-Disclaimer: This message was sent to you using the "E-mail a
  friend" facility on http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/ The BBC is not
  responsible for the content of this e-mail, and anything said in
  this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views.
X-Maybe-Originating-IP-Address: 203.184.45.168
X-HTTP-UserAgent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Geoff. Waterhouse saw this story on the BBC News website and thought you
should see it.

** Message **
i decided to check up on Northern Rock after my previous e mail and came ac=
ross a whole load of stuff. This is just one. A search on "Northern Rock ba=
nk latest news" is enlightening

** Rock expects =A330bn loan this year **
Northern Rock expects to have borrowed =A330bn from the Bank of England by =
the end of 2007, the BBC learns.
< http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/business/7073556.stm >


** BBC Daily E-mail **
Choose the news and sport headlines you want - when you want them, all
in one daily e-mail
< http://www.bbc.co.uk/email >


** Disclaimer **
The BBC is not responsible for the content of this e-mail, and anything wri=
tten in this e-mail does not necessarily reflect the BBC's views or opinion=
s. Please note that neither the e-mail address nor name of the sender have=
=A0been verified.

If you do not wish to receive such e-mails in the future or want to know mo=
re about the BBC's Email a Friend service, please read our frequently asked=
questions. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/4162471.stm


      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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From helend at contact.net.nz  Mon Nov 26 17:56:40 2007
From: helend at contact.net.nz (Helen Dew)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 11:56:40 +1300
Subject: [LE] FW: Keeping it Local for the Holidays
Message-ID: <002101c8307f$9bd6e1f0$0201a8c0@IBMKEKR55A>

The following article would be most timely for communites planning 'Buy
Local' campaigns.

Berkshares is the model being used as the currency system in by some
Transition Towns (TT) groups.
As an exapmple hear Molly Scott Cato, TT Lewes (UK)
http://transitiontowns.org/Lewes/Lmlslp 

Helen

-----Original Message-----
From: E.F. Schumacher Society [mailto:efssociety at smallisbeautiful.org] 
Sent: Tuesday, 27 November 2007 8:47 a.m.
To: helend at contact.net.nz
Subject: Keeping it Local for the Holidays

Dear Mrs. Dew

Economist Fritz Schumacher called for a system of vibrant local economies in
which the goods consumed in a region are produced in the region.

He argued that when production is local there is a better chance of knowing
the ecological and human story of the production process: what natural
resources are used in manufacturing; are these resources gathered in a way
that maintains the health of the ecosystem; is manufacturing waste
responsibly disposed; what are the working conditions of those making the
products and do they earn a living wage for the region; does the regulatory
environment facilitate necessary innovation; and do the product and its
production process draw on the unique cultural traditions of the region?

Schumacher noted that when production is local, goods need not be
transported over long distances using precious fossil fuel and adding to
climate degradation.  Further, a region making its own products retains a
skilled workforce and manufacturing infrastructure and so is less vulnerable
to sudden fluctuations in the global economy.

If we accept Schumacher?s economic analysis, then implied is the recognition
of our responsibility as concerned citizens to keep spending local and so
strengthen our local economy.  This is not an isolationist strategy.  The
same buy local mandate applies to citizens around the world seeking to
create their own regional economic security.

Our task is to foster the capacity to produce necessities of food, clothing,
shelter, and energy from local resources for local use.  In doing so in our
own community we set an example for other communities.

BerkShares local currency is a tool for citizens of the Berkshire region of
Massachusetts to demonstrate their support for local businesses, develop a
sustainable local economy, and celebrate the stories behind their
purchases..

The circulation of BerkShares continues to be strong and this holiday season
trade is getting an added boost from the BerkShares Holiday Shop-a-Thon.
Whenever someone purchases a holiday gift using BerkShares, he or she earns
the chance to win great prizes donated by participating businesses.   You
can keep informed of the progress of BerkShares at
(http://www.berkshares.org).

Warm holiday wishes,
Susan Witt, Michael Gordon, Kristen Fix, and Chris Lindstrom
E. F. Schumacher Society Staff
140 Jug End Road
Great Barrington, MA 01230
www.smallisbeautiful.org.

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